All Israel Will be Saved. Romans 11:26

[Covenanter]

So when God gives them their promised land in full, and saves those alive at the Second Coming, you will be judging God?

Where do Jesus & his Apostles make that promise?
What did Hebrews 11 say about the promised land as understood by Abraham & the patriarchs?

Heb. 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God......
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.​

It would be helpful if you made a point of quoting the Scripture that supports what you are saying. Helpful to you as well as the rest of us.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's a done deal from ancient times:

43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14

Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56

When did Israel have that under their Messiah King God promised unto them?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where do Jesus & his Apostles make that promise?
What did Hebrews 11 say about the promised land as understood by Abraham & the patriarchs?

Heb. 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God......
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.​

It would be helpful if you made a point of quoting the Scripture that supports what you are saying. Helpful to you as well as the rest of us.

Acts, Jesus stated to them and us that the Kingdom God promised to Israel was not at that time, but once israel turned back to Messiah per peter, He would come again! If the gentiles coming into God made a big deal, how much greater when Israel returns at time of their restoration!

 

[Covenanter]

Acts, Jesus stated to them and us that the Kingdom God promised to Israel was not at that time, but once israel turned back to Messiah per peter, He would come again! If the gentiles coming into God made a big deal, how much greater when Israel returns at time of their restoration!

It would be helpful if you made a point of quoting the Scripture that supports what you are saying. Helpful to you as well as the rest of us.

 

[Yeshua1]

It would be helpful if you made a point of quoting the Scripture that supports what you are saying. Helpful to you as well as the rest of us.

Acts 1:6-7 Esv

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, jwill you atthis time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, l“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
Acts 3:21 esv
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Romans 11:25-36

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!Rather, through their trespass usalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as tomake Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world,and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more wil ltheir full inclusion2 mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as vI am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and wth us save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means xthe reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 yIf the dough offered asfirstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if zsome of the branches were broken off, and you, aalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in thenourishing rootGreek root of richness; some manuscripts richness" style="color: rgb(114, 171, 191);">3 of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward thebranches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but theroot that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off sothat I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off becauseof their unbelief, but you bstand fast through faith. So cdo not becomeproud, but dfear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neitherwill he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God:severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you,eprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise fyou too will be cut off.23 And geven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be graftedin, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cutfrom what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature,into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the naturalbranches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 hLest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unawareof this mystery, brothers:4 ia partial hardening has come upon Israel,juntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israelwill be saved, as it is written,

k“The Deliverer will come lfrom Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

27 “and this will be my mcovenant with them

nwhen I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regardselection, they are obeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For thegifts and pthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as qyou were atone time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of theirdisobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by themercy shown to you they also may now5 receive mercy. 32 For God rhasconsigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all..

Still appears that God has not forever ceased to deal with national israel!

 

[kyredneck]

When did Israel have that under their Messiah King God promised unto them?

Now, today, in the regeneration, in the building again of the house of David, the building of the Church, the true, real, bona fide, Israel of God.

20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

 

[Yeshua1]

Now, today, in the regeneration, in the building again of the house of David, the building of the Church, the true, real, bona fide, Israel of God.

20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

Problem is that God sees spiritual israel as being the jews now saved by Yeshua, and the Church comprised of both them and Gentiles!

 

[kyredneck]

Problem is that God sees spiritual israel as being the jews now saved by Yeshua, and the Church comprised of both them and Gentiles!

I challenge you to prove from scripture that God makes such a distinction.

Build your case from scripture and not parroting the dispy play book.

 

[Yeshua1]

I challenge you to prove from scripture that God makes such a distinction.

Build your case from scripture and not parroting the dispy play book.

Not all israel is now Israel, so that just the saved jews are seen as being spiritual Israel to God now!

 

[Covenanter]

Problem is that God sees spiritual israel as being the jews now saved by Yeshua, and the Church comprised of both them and Gentiles!

I thought by that you meant spiritual Israel comprises saved Jews together with saved Gentiles, so that spiritual Israel, aka the Israel of God, is the church. I was ready to agree with your post, until I saw the next two posts.

I challenge you to prove from scripture that God makes such a distinction.

Build your case from scripture and not parroting the dispy play book.

I didn't see Y was making a distinction. Now I see that you see he sees a distinction.

Not all israel is now Israel, so that just the saved jews are seen as being spiritual Israel to God now!

There has always been a spiritual Israel, that God calls my people expressed by the covenant relationship: I will be their God, and they will be my people.

God says of rebellious Israel:

Hos. 1:9 Then the Lord said, ‘Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.
10 ‘Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people”, they will be called “children of the living God”.​

See Rom. 9:24-26
And he says of his redeemed, both Jew & Gentile:

Rom. 9:
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
‘I will call them “my people” who are not my people;
and I will call her “my loved one” who is not my loved one,’
26 and,
‘In the very place where it was said to them,
“You are not my people,”
there they will be called “children of the living God.”’
​

Notice the fulfilment of the covenant of peace:

Eze. 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them for ever.”’

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.​

There is no distinction between redeemed Israel & the church. We are one redeemed people of God, :

Gal. 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

 

[John of Japan]

How "Christian" is Christian Zionism? That's not to suggest that Christian Zionists are not Christians, but that they are in a de facto "bewitched" situation in having "Israel" in the centre of their thinking, rather than Christ.

They preach the Gospel & worship the triune God, but they maintain that OC prophecy is yet unfulfilled, despite the NC & the perfect fulfilment in & by our Lord Jesus Christ.

However, they have been bewitched by the claimed "literal interpretation" (an oxymoron) of the OC that looks to physical fulfilment of prophecy, rather than spiritual.

They therefore see the presence of non-Jews in the promised land as a violation of the promises, & the oppression of all Palestinians as justified - they shouldn't be there.

ATTENTION: "Christian Zionism" is not dispensationalism. As a dispensational theologian I object strongly to this mis-characterization. Furthermore, dispensationalists do not have Israel "in the center" of our thinking. The theological basis of the theology is doxological. I am not a Zionist. My students are not Zionists. No dispensationalist of my acquaintance is a Zionist (and I know many).

I urge you, please actually understand dispensationalism before making these false charges.

 

[John of Japan]

However, they have been bewitched by the claimed "literal interpretation" (an oxymoron) of the OC that looks to physical fulfilment of prophecy, rather than spiritual.

This I will admit that I hold to: literal interpretation (technically, grammatical-historical interpretation).

Let me see. Every single OT prophecy about the first coming of Christ, His incarnation, was fulfilled literally. So, please explain at what point God decided His prophecies of the Second Coming should be fulfilled "spiritually" rather than literally?

 

[FollowTheWay]

Problem is that God sees spiritual israel as being the jews now saved by Yeshua, and the Church comprised of both them and Gentiles!

I believe that the second covenant completely replaced the first and in replacement theology in which the promises made under the first covenant are now made to Christ's church. The Jews must be saved in the same way all the rest of us are saved, by grace through faith and following through with a lifelong personal relationship with Jesus. They have no special arrangement anymore. This is supported by the gospel but I won't get into the detail;s yet.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I believe that the second covenant completely replaced the first and in replacement theology in which the promises made under the first covenant are now made to Christ's church. The Jews must be saved in the same way all the rest of us are saved, by grace through faith and following through with a lifelong personal relationship with Jesus. They have no special arrangement anymore. This is supported by the gospel but I won't get into the detail;s yet.

Dispensationalism which teaches that the 4 gospels are not relevant to us today is a heresy and a false gospel.

 

[John of Japan]

Dispensationalism which teaches that the 4 gospels are not relevant to us today is a heresy and a false gospel.

That would be hyper dispensationalism, quite different from dispensationalism.

 

[kyredneck]

ATTENTION: "Christian Zionism" is not dispensationalism.

Tell that to the world at large.:

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
(an excellent read by the way)

"Karen Armstrong is not alone in tracing within dispensationalism evidence of the legacy of the Crusades. They have, she claims, 'returned to a classical and extreme religious crusading.'[[116]] Rosemary Radford Ruether also sees the danger of this kind of fundamentalism in its, 'dualistic, Manichaean view of global politics - America and Israel together against an evil world.'[[117]] Kenneth Cragg comments satirically,

It is so; God chose the Jews; the land is theirs by divine gift. These dicta cannot be questioned or resisted. They are final. Such verdicts come infallibly from Christian biblicists for whom Israel can do no wrong-thus fortified. But can such positivism, this unquestioning finality, be compatible with the integrity of the prophets themselves? It certainly cannot square with the open peoplehood under God which is the crux of New Testament faith. Nor can it well be reconciled with the ethical demands central to law and election alike... Chosenness cannot properly be either an ethnic exclusivism or a political facility.[[118]]

The Middle East Council of Churches which represents the indigenous and ancient Oriental and Eastern Churches, has also been highly critical of the activities of dispensationalists.

[They] ...force the Zionist model of theocratic and ethnocentric nationalism on the Middle East... [rejecting]... the movement of Christian unity and inter-religious understanding which is promoted by the churches in the region. The Christian Zionist programme, with its elevation of modern political Zionism, provides the Christian with a world view where the gospel is identified with the ideology of success and militarism. It places its emphasis on events leading up to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.[[119]]

Clarence Bass makes this assessment of dispensationalism.

No part of historic Christian doctrine supports this radical distinction between church and kingdom. To be sure they are not identical; but dispensationalism has added the idea that the kingdom was to be a restoration of Israel, not a consummation of the church... In the light of this principle, it is legitimate to ask whether dispensationalism is not orientated more from the Abrahamic Covenant than from the Cross. Is not its focus centred more on the Jewish kingdom than on the Body of Christ? Does it not interpret the New Testament in the light of Old Testament prophecies, instead of interpreting those prophecies in the light of the more complete revelation of the New Testament?[[120]]

Whether intentionally or otherwise, dispensationalism is being used today to give theological justification to what the United Nations regards as racism[[121]] and the denial of basic human rights; supporting the ethnic-cleansing of Palestinians from their historic lands; endorsing the building of Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories; inciting religious fanaticism by supporting the rebuilding of a Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah; dismissing moderate Jewish opinion willing to negotiate land for peace; and advocating an apocalyptic eschatology likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy."

 

[percho]

Tell that to the world at large.:

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
(an excellent read by the way)

"Karen Armstrong is not alone in tracing within dispensationalism evidence of the legacy of the Crusades. They have, she claims, 'returned to a classical and extreme religious crusading.'[[116]] Rosemary Radford Ruether also sees the danger of this kind of fundamentalism in its, 'dualistic, Manichaean view of global politics - America and Israel together against an evil world.'[[117]] Kenneth Cragg comments satirically,

It is so; God chose the Jews; the land is theirs by divine gift. These dicta cannot be questioned or resisted. They are final. Such verdicts come infallibly from Christian biblicists for whom Israel can do no wrong-thus fortified. But can such positivism, this unquestioning finality, be compatible with the integrity of the prophets themselves? It certainly cannot square with the open peoplehood under God which is the crux of New Testament faith. Nor can it well be reconciled with the ethical demands central to law and election alike... Chosenness cannot properly be either an ethnic exclusivism or a political facility.[[118]]

The Middle East Council of Churches which represents the indigenous and ancient Oriental and Eastern Churches, has also been highly critical of the activities of dispensationalists.

[They] ...force the Zionist model of theocratic and ethnocentric nationalism on the Middle East... [rejecting]... the movement of Christian unity and inter-religious understanding which is promoted by the churches in the region. The Christian Zionist programme, with its elevation of modern political Zionism, provides the Christian with a world view where the gospel is identified with the ideology of success and militarism. It places its emphasis on events leading up to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.[[119]]

Clarence Bass makes this assessment of dispensationalism.

No part of historic Christian doctrine supports this radical distinction between church and kingdom. To be sure they are not identical; but dispensationalism has added the idea that the kingdom was to be a restoration of Israel, not a consummation of the church... In the light of this principle, it is legitimate to ask whether dispensationalism is not orientated more from the Abrahamic Covenant than from the Cross. Is not its focus centred more on the Jewish kingdom than on the Body of Christ? Does it not interpret the New Testament in the light of Old Testament prophecies, instead of interpreting those prophecies in the light of the more complete revelation of the New Testament?[[120]]

Whether intentionally or otherwise, dispensationalism is being used today to give theological justification to what the United Nations regards as racism[[121]] and the denial of basic human rights; supporting the ethnic-cleansing of Palestinians from their historic lands; endorsing the building of Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories; inciting religious fanaticism by supporting the rebuilding of a Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah; dismissing moderate Jewish opinion willing to negotiate land for peace; and advocating an apocalyptic eschatology likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy."

I just had to do it.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1 Tim 2:12

 

[Covenanter]

So when God gives them their promised land in full, and saves those alive at the Second Coming, you will be judging God?

Where do Jesus & his Apostles make that promise?

Acts 1:6-7 Esv
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, jwill you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, l“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

Acts 3:21 esv
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Romans 11:25-36
......
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
.....​

Still appears that God has not forever ceased to deal with national israel!

Thank you for quoting NC Scripture references in support of your assertion.

Acts 1:6-7 Shows the Apostles have not yet understood the Lord's teaching about the kingdom. They still expect him to establish a national kingdom. You cannot prove doctrine based on the Apostles misunderstanding. Just as the Emmaus two expressed their disappointment:

Luke 24:21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. ......​

They were speaking without the understanding the Holy Spirit would give.

John 16:12 ‘I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. ​

Jesus had warned the Jewish leaders:

Mat. 21:43 ‘Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.’
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.​

Jesus is not implying a "replacement" Gentile kingdom, but a kingdom of redeemed people of God where ethnicity is not a factor, and you show their allegiance to the kingdom by their fruitfulness.

You might have quoted this to support your assertions:

Mat. 23: 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”’​

possibly implying that they would see him again in the future as a nation when they recognise he is indeed Messiah.
No. He has a Gospel that his Apostles will proclaim, and they must acknowledge Jesus as Lord for salvation - as Peter preached at Pentecost.
Many thousands of Jews did indeed recognise him for their salvation.

Acts 3:21 does not stand alone - it is a verse of a sermon. Peter warns the Jews by quoting Moses' warning. He is then very specific as he quotes the promise to Abraham:

Acts 3:24 ‘Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, “Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.” 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.’​

Peter confirms that all the prophets have foretold these days. Dare they reject the wonderful promises now being fulfilled by the risen Lord Jesus through his Apostles?
All peoples on earth will be blessed, beginning with the Jews.

Romans 11 is the subject of the whole thread. It assures the salvation of all Israel on repentance, but that does not imply the salvation of the whole nation.

 

[Jope]

I just had to do it.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1 Tim 2:12

[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jope]

All peoples on earth will be blessed, beginning with the Jews.

Morning good sir.

Why do the Jews get blessed first? On what grounds?