All There Is About Parousia

[HankD]

Wow, then maybe we should put a search out for the apostle John:

21 Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. Jn 21

It'd be really neat to talk to him.

Yes it would.
Do you speak Aramaic?

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Yes it would.
Do you speak Aramaic?

Nah, only Google Translate. SOMEBODY would know though.

 

[prophecy70]

Nah, only Google Translate.

we is both unedumacated.

 

[John of Japan]

It was a "literal" coming, In judgment by the roman armies, in the first century, prophesied by Jesus to first century Jews in a temple that was still standing in the first century, a temple that was prophesied to be destroyed in that same generation (the first century), that actually did in that same century (the 1st) and generation.

Huh? You are not interacting with what I said.

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

No mention of "armies" here.

Tacitus
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

No mention of literal, earthly armies here. Besides, how do you know Tacitus is taling about AD 70?

Eusebius of Caesarea
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

No mention of armies here.

When these 1st century Jews asked these questions, they didn't understand Jesus was leaving, so how could they have asked about a coming back? They were asking about the end of OC Judaism and the beginning of Christ's kingdom.

Apparently you missed where I pointed out that parousia can mean the official coming of a king. That is the true meaning of the 2nd Coming of Christ--coming officially as a king to rule the world.

 

[HankD]

Yikes, Do you think the Apostle John uses internet forums?

I don't know. Maybe.

Preterists ask us to believe the incredible - ALL has been fulfilled!

So, yes its incredible - but it may well be that some folks who were in the crowd to whom He preached the Olivet Discourse may still be here waiting for the parousia.

 

[prophecy70]

Huh? You are not interacting with what I said.


No mention of "armies" here.

No mention of literal, earthly armies here.

No mention of armies here.

Apparently you missed where I pointed out that parousia can mean the official coming of a king. That is the true meaning of the 2nd Coming of Christ--coming officially as a king to rule the world.

And we pointed out generation can mean, b :a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously.

So whats the point?

 

[HankD]

Nah, only Google Translate. SOMEBODY would know though.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Preterists ask us to believe the incredible - ALL has been fulfilled!

Dispensationalists ask us to disbelieve the words of Christ and the apostles - incredible!

 

[John of Japan]

Thats based on your preconceived idea of this passage.

Um, no, it was an actual quote from Josephus. I have the 4 volume set here in my office, given to me by my Bible college roommate.

Well in the future when it happens hopefully the Jewish people, for the lack of vehicles, can flee to the mountains from sitting on the flat top roofs, praying its not a sabbath day.

All these modern day armies from Hanks picture wouldn't see people fleeing?

I want to know if this is future, why are these armies surrounding Jerusalem? who are they going to war with? Isn't "nicolae carpathia" already sitting in this rebuilt temple?

Okay, apparently you completely rewrote this post. Once again, let's please not derail the thread.

 

[prophecy70]

Um, no, it was an actual quote from Josephus. I have the 4 volume set here in my office, given to me by my Bible college roommate.


Okay, apparently you completely rewrote this post. Once again, let's please not derail the thread.

Apparently you missed where I pointed out that parousia can mean the official coming of a king. That is the true meaning of the 2nd Coming of Christ--coming officially as a king to rule the world.

I was saying that is based on your Preconceived idea of the second coming in this passage.

 

[Covenanter]

Mat. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

If the disciples expected a sudden & glorious coming, why ask about a sign? In the context, they were asking about the destruction. Jesus has a lot to explain.

Jesus warns about the tribulation before the destruction. He's telling the Christians the signs they will watch for in order to flee the city.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.​

There will be a beginning of the final war. When it begins, the Roman legions - like vultures - will gather. The beginning will be unmistakable, like a flash of lightning begins the thunderstorm. The lightning announces the gathering of the legions intent on spoil.

But even that is not the end, there's more to come -

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The elect will be gathered from the doomed city before the destruction. Jesus would come & supervise the deliverance of the elect before the destruction, & would ensure the fulfilment of his prophecy before this generation passed.

The other comings in the chapter relate to the passing of heaven & earth - the final coming in resurrection & judgment.

So about 35 years later the scoffers challenged his prophecy -

2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation​

If they were thinking in terms of the final coming, the question would be irrelevant. No. They were obviously thinking, "Jesus hasn't come as he declared he would. This generation is fast dying out." Peter assures them that just as God warned of a coming flood, with 100 years warning, & opened the ark for sinners who heeded that warning, though none but the family were saved when the promised flood came, so Jesus' warning of his coming is sure. There's still time to repent - God is longsuffering, but the destruction will come.

Peter extends the warning to all of us, encouraging godly living in anticipation of the final coming in judgment.

 

[HankD]

Alas we have wandered far astray from the o/p... mea culpa etc...

I believe JoJ has shown us several parousia passages where there is no question concerning the meaning of parousia,
which although has alternative meanings, is clearly declaring the visible and bodily Coming of The Lord as described in Acts 1:11.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

And a further reference:

2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
​

That reference is to Jesus' presence with them during his life on earth, with a particular reference to the transfiguration.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe JoJ has shown us several parousia passages where there is no question concerning the meaning of parousia,

...only to those already on his side of the fence. Hasn't influenced this redneck at all.

the meaning of parousia,
which although has alternative meanings,

Yea, alternate meanings like genea (generation) has alternate meanings, and you all cherry pick the alternate meaning that best suits your presuppositions at the moment, even if it it goes against scripture interpreting itself.

is clearly declaring the visible and bodily Coming of The Lord as described in Acts 1:11

Again, only those with your same presuppositions will agree to that.

JoJ has proved nothing, just as he didn't prove anything here:

The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek

 

[HankD]

...only to those already on his side of the fence. Hasn't influenced this redneck at all.



Yea, alternate meanings like genea (generation) has alternate meanings, and you all cherry pick the alternate meaning that best suits your presuppositions at the moment (even if it it goes against scripture self interpretation).



Again, only those with your same presuppositions will agree to that.

JoJ has proved nothing, just as he didn't prove anything here:

The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek

Yes - we disagree.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Yes - we disagree.

Yes - I agree.

 

[John of Japan]

I was saying that is based on your Preconceived idea of the second coming in this passage.

Sorry, but I've given nothing but facts in this thread. And you don't know what my "preconceived idea of the second coming in this passage" is. You can't read my mind.

Here's a challenge for you: actually respond to all of the Scripture I've given and to my interpretation of those Scriptures. Remember, you are one of those I complained about in the OP after you said in a previous thread, "They don't post much scripture, because not a lot of scripture backs what they say." So here's your chance. I've posted a ton of Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

And we pointed out generation can mean, b :a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously.

So whats the point?

Genea is polysemous. So what?

 

[kyredneck]

Genea is polysemous. So what?

You should go with the meaning that the scripture supports instead of cherry picking one that fits your presupposition. That's what.

 

[prophecy70]

Sorry, but I've given nothing but facts in this thread. And you don't know what my "preconceived idea of the second coming in this passage" is. You can't read my mind.

Here's a challenge for you: actually respond to all of the Scripture I've given and to my interpretation of those Scriptures. Remember, you are one of those I complained about in the OP after you said in a previous thread, "They don't post much scripture, because not a lot of scripture backs what they say." So here's your chance. I've posted a ton of Scripture.

You have not proved anything but what Parousia can mean from the word it self. If this is a literal physical coming where Jesus beams down to the MofO, than it contradicts other passages in the bible about the timing of these passages.

Matthew 26:64
"You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

“And Jesus answered and said, ‘YOU unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with YOU? How long shall I put up with YOU? Bring him here to Me’” (Matt. 17:17).


Im not going to argue with you about Greek, but this still has not convinced me at all that Parousia in Matthew 24 is talking about the physical literal Jesus descending through the clouds, because that does not explain the numerous OTHER objections to that... that you do have to cherry pick the wording and verses to explain why Matthew 24 is still future.

Matthew 16:28
Truly I say to you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John 21:22
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."