Alter Calls

[Tom Butler]

God only helps the broken and contrite. Coming to the altar in front of everyone is an indication of not caring what people think but that they need to get out of where they're at in the present and come to God for help. Hopefully the pulpit is more sacred and holy than the pews and the altar a connecting point with Heaven!

I ask again, what altar? Where is the altar in a Baptist church? And how is a piece of wood a means of connecting with heaven?

 

[just-want-peace]

I ask again, what altar? Where is the altar in a Baptist church? And how is a piece of wood a means of connecting with heaven?

Bolded mine

(Good question!)

Perhaps kissing a crucifix----!!!????:smilewinkgrin:

Motes in eyes, planks in eyes; awful lot of opinion being "scripturalized" in this thread!!!

 

[Rippon]

It sounds as if there are quite a few Roman Catholic Baptists in America.

 

[Salty]

I had one pastor who insisted we had to have a "mourners bench" up front!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It sounds as if there are quite a few Roman Catholic Baptists in America.

Was thinking the exact same thing. I remember MANY years ago insisting my church had an 'invitation' after every service. Where did I get that?

 

[dcorbett]

Tom Butler, you said:

My point is that whatever it takes is not always okay. Simply test it against the scriptures and if it passes, go for it.

That is my point about the dog and pony show that some modernistic churches put on. Light shows, dancing, live bands, all this is unnecessary. Preach the Gospel, pure and true, and people will come. Churches are hospitals for the lost, and if you give them anything else as a substitute, it is wrong and belongs in the world, not in church.

And no, I am not a legalist, I am someone with convictions and values. I didn't say a word about your salvation. That is between you and the Lord. I am saved by grace alone, not by works. But let your light so shine before men.

 

[Allan]

It sounds as if there are quite a few Roman Catholic Baptists in America.

Ya know it's funny that many of them are Calvinists, not only from our time but even going back to men like Spurgeon and others.
Though Spurgeon's was 'slightly' different he still called them forward to deal with whatever God placed upon their hearts or to come up afterward to speak with him. He also endorsed men like Moody who did what is commonly see today.

What is commical is that the term 'altar' is KNOWN to simply be symbolic, refering to a place where one did business with God and that place was always before the people and not hidden away. And yet it people like you and others on here still try to make it something literal :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Was thinking the exact same thing. I remember MANY years ago insisting my church had an 'invitation' after every service. Where did I get that?

Uh.. maybe from Christ who always gave men the opportunity to respond?

Or maybe from the apostles who also gave men the opportunity to respond to the messages they gave. Otherwise what is the point of giving your message.. to hear the sound of your own voice?

 

[Allan]

I ask again, what altar? Where is the altar in a Baptist church? And how is a piece of wood a means of connecting with heaven?

If I may, to those who are against alter calls, that it is not so much the alter call itself which is the issue (because it is nothing more than a plea to respond to the message) but it is more 'how' or the manner in which the alter calls are done, and for what reason "some" seem to be done. That is really the isse and not the alter call itself.

And to the above I understand and agree with 'that' issue.
If people think walking to the front saves, if they think just praying a prayer saves, ect.. then it is not result of an alter call (as some assume) but if this be the case, it is the result of very poor or a miscommunication on the part of the minister and whoever else.

As for the reference to an 'altar', it is symbolic to that which the altar was know for.
I posted this once before but here is again:

Four things that made the OT Altar more the than just metal or stone.
1. It was a place of active faith.
....a . Only those who believe and follow the Lord will come to such a place. It's a place where faith takes action.
2. It is a place of public statement, acknowledging their depenancy upon God.
....a . A public profession by a display of action before the congration.
3. A place that destroys self/pride and brings about humility.
4. Where the altar was, there was worship, and it revealed God was moving in there midst, to those who stood near by.

The Pictorial Encyclopedia of the bible, by Merrill C. Tenny says this about the altar. Quote "The covenant code (Exod 20:24-26) clearly recognizes a plurality of altars, implying that the object was an almost indispensable accompaniment of formal worship, and that sacrifice, which was inseparable from worship, and all forms of approach to the Deity could not be made without an altar." There could be no worship without a sacrifice and there was not sacrifice without an altar. Thus no relationship was possible without this simple but profound item.

But you say Allan, that was the Old Testament and we are under the New. We no longer need altars to sacrifice. I tell you this and listen closely. Yes, we do need these altars, and more now than ever. The Old Test. is the physical representation of the spiritual aspect (New Test) - so in relation to this let me explain:

Did you know that the altar of sacrifice was always out in the open? You could never and would never find this kind of altar inside. It was always outside for all to see that you were committing something unto the Lord. The only other altar mentioned in the Temple is the altar of incense, and it was in the Temple itself (the Holy Place) representing the prayers of the people. This is the most beautiful picture of a believer. Outwardly displaying a need but inwardly seeking the Lord. Not giving great prayers for all to hear, but being there for all to see. (Luk 18:10-14) And this will allow others to respond as the Lord leads them toward and or for us; thus we as a body can function and walk in Spirit and Truth in unity and fellowship/partnership.

There are four spiritual things in the N.T. altar, that mirror the O.T. Altar.
1. It was a place of active faith.
....a . Only those who believe and follow the Lord will come to such a place. It's a place where faith takes action. (James 2:14)

2. It is a place of public statement, acknowledging publically our dependancy on God. IOW - A public type of Profession. i.e.
....a . Salvation -Rom. 10:9,10
....b . Repentance – I John 1:9
....c . Renewal -James 4:7-10,
....d . Declaration -Mat 10:32,33
....e . Help –I Peter 5:7, James 5:16 and Gal 6:2)
(not that the above were all done at an altar but the public aspect is what I am bringing to bear, which is what the body privy to)

3. A place that destroys self and brings about humility. (Mat 16:24,24 and II Cor. 5:15)

4. Where the altar was, there was worship, and it showed God was moving in their midst (due to the sacrifice - Christ), to those who stood near by. (John 4:23,24, John 9:31, and Acts 1:8,12 + 2:1,2,41)

Both the spiritual nature and symbolism are established in that the altar is the embodiment of the nature of God. It shows judgment and wrath without mercy. (someone must pay) It also shows His everlasting grace and mercy. (He paid it for me) and lastly it displays patience and love. (He waits for me to come in line with His will)

These are just some of the reasons but I figured I would share them.

Take it or leave it. But there is nothing in scripture against it nor specifically for it, and yet God still uses this means for His ends.

It is symbolic much like we use the sybolism of the alter in marrage like brother David illistrated. The problem is when people make it out be something it has never been declared to be, mostly because either they don't use it or they don't like the sound of it. Arguments can be made for both sides, and neither are unbiblical. One might not be looked upon with favor by those who don't understand it's usage and meaning but it does not change the fact that God uses this means as much as the other.

Even after the ultimate altar sacrifice in Jesus, we find Paul using altar language in Phil 2:17 and 2 Tim 4:6-- I take it to mean the sacrifice of surrender and obviously not a literal altar.

As a figure of speech, I personally see nothing wrong in using the altar-language, depending on the context.

 

[Jerome]

Indeed.

Even over at the Reformed Baptist Seminary Blog, they find biblical support for what they call the "family altar". Remember those? How many of us have found an alternate plan for that too?

"If there is no altar in the house, is it right to call it God's house at all?" —Chales Spurgeon, Bringing Sinners to the Saviour

 

[paul wassona]

Did Abraham build altars? Yes. Did others pray at these altars?Undoubtedly, because so many later followed his example. Now,do we see Abraham building any altars in Egypt? Was Abraham a Catholic? Are you like Abraham in Egypt and no altars, or like him when he came back to Bethel? Would you like your altars made of stones or of wood and cushioned? Allan, I like your sentiment for the people of God and the altar! I learned critics don't smile when in practice, I'm smiling!

 

[tinytim]

Did Abraham build altars? Yes. Did others pray at these altars?Undoubtedly, because so many later followed his example. Now,do we see Abraham building any altars in Egypt? Was Abraham a Catholic? Are you like Abraham in Egypt and no altars, or like him when he came back to Bethel? Would you like your altars made of stones or of wood and cushioned? Allan, I like your sentiment for the people of God and the altar! I learned critics don't smile when in practice, I'm smiling!

Altars don't belong in the NT church...
The only altar that matters was the one Christ died on as our final sacrifice. The OT altars were shadows of the real thing.. Calvary.

The Altar has become an idol in our churches today. Instead of people basing their salvation on the finished work of Calvary, they base it on when they knelt at the Altar.

 

[preachinjesus]

I've said it before...the beauty of the new covenant is it took us out of the temple and put the temple into us...

we aren't an old covenant people

 

[tinytim]

Until people realize the building is NOT the church.. and has nothing holy about it..
And until people realize WE are the church, and God NOW resides in us...

People will continue to worship material things, and miss what it means to be the church.

 

[Jerome]

"I fear that some of our orthodox brethren have been prejudiced against the free invitations of the gospel by hearing the raw, undigested harangues of revivalist speakers whose heads are loosely put together." —Charles Spurgeon, On Conversion as Our Aim

"...if we were to leave untouched everything that is capable of abuse, and to disallow practices which rightly conducted tend to good, simply because some have gone in for too much of that good thing, we should unnecessarily deprive ourselves of much that is lawful and should curtail our efforts in the prosecution of the King's business. Many a time it has been my joy to see the nail which was driven home by the sermon clinched by the after talk..." —Thomas Spurgeon, The Sword and the Trowel, Jan. 1882.

 

[Allan]

Altars don't belong in the NT church...
The only altar that matters was the one Christ died on as our final sacrifice. The OT altars were shadows of the real thing.. Calvary.

The Altar has become an idol in our churches today. Instead of people basing their salvation on the finished work of Calvary, they base it on when they knelt at the Altar.

It 'seems' that you don't understand what the 'altar' means.

It is sybolic and it's sybolism remains constant even in the NT.
Again, I restate:

But you say Allan, that was the Old Testament and we are under the New. We no longer need altars to sacrifice. I tell you this and listen closely. Yes, we do need these altars, and more now than ever. The Old Test. is the physical representation of the spiritual aspect (New Test) - so in relation to this let me explain:

Did you know that the altar of sacrifice was always out in the open? You could never and would never find this kind of altar inside. It was always outside for all to see that you were committing something unto the Lord. The only other altar mentioned in the Temple is the altar of incense, and it was in the Temple itself (the Holy Place) representing the prayers of the people. This is the most beautiful picture of a believer. Outwardly displaying a need but inwardly seeking the Lord. Not giving great prayers for all to hear, but being there for all to see. (Luk 18:10-14) And this will allow others to respond as the Lord leads them toward and or for us; thus we as a body can function and walk in Spirit and Truth in unity and fellowship/partnership.

There are four spiritual things in the N.T. altar, that mirror the O.T. Altar.
1. It was a place of active faith.
....a . Only those who believe and follow the Lord will come to such a place. It's a place where faith takes action. (James 2:14)

2. It is a place of public statement, acknowledging publically our dependancy on God. IOW - A public type of Profession. i.e.
....a . Salvation -Rom. 10:9,10
....b . Repentance – I John 1:9
....c . Renewal -James 4:7-10,
....d . Declaration -Mat 10:32,33
....e . Help –I Peter 5:7, James 5:16 and Gal 6:2)
(not that the above were all done at an altar but the public aspect is what I am bringing to bear, which is what the body is privy to)

3. A place that destroys self and brings about humility. (Mat 16:24,24 and II Cor. 5:15)

4. Where the altar was, there was worship, and it showed God was moving in their midst (due to the sacrifice - Christ), to those who stood near by. (John 4:23,24, John 9:31, and Acts 1:8,12 + 2:1,2,41)

Both the spiritual nature and symbolism are established in that the altar is the embodiment of the nature of God. It shows judgment and wrath without mercy. (someone must pay) It also shows His everlasting grace and mercy. (He paid it for me) and lastly it displays patience and love. (He waits for me to come in line with His will)

How can there be a sacrifice if there is no altar? NOT a particular item but a place in which give openly. It can be up front, in back, or in side rooms but it is symbolism not literalism.

 

[tinytim]

I'll agree with that Allan..
I am talking more about the way Altar calls have been given... with the 123 repeat after me stuff Paul Washer preaches against..

Many are going to Hell because they thought they were saved when they walked the aisle, knelt at an old fashioned altar, and prayed through. Unless they realized they were a sinner, and received Christ, they wasted their time.

Symbolism yes.. Material no.

 

[Robert Snow]

Altars don't belong in the NT church...
The only altar that matters was the one Christ died on as our final sacrifice. The OT altars were shadows of the real thing.. Calvary.

The Altar has become an idol in our churches today. Instead of people basing their salvation on the finished work of Calvary, they base it on when they knelt at the Altar.

I believe you are exaggerating. I can show you the exact spot where I accepted Christ, the front pew of a Baptist church. I don't however base my salvation on it or reverence it in any way.

I praise God that the preacher had an alter call the morning I was saved. I might have left unsaved. It was often reiterated in this church that going forward did nothing as far as salvation was concerned, but to go forward and pray about a particular problem never seemed wrong to us at all!

 

[Allan]

I believe you are exaggerating. I can show you the exact spot where I accepted Christ, the front pew of a Baptist church. I don't however base my salvation on it or reverence it in any way.

I praise God that the preacher had an alter call the morning I was saved. I might have left unsaved. It was often reiterated in this church that going forward did nothing as far as salvation was concerned, but to go forward and pray about a particular problem never seemed wrong to us at all!

I understand now more what TinyTim was saying in that some who use the 'altar call' do not do so in a manner that 'explains' salvation properly. These types emphasize you 'must' walk and aisle, and you 'must' pray 'their' prayer or you will not be saved.

I have had a VERY hard time helping people understand the difference when they really do state their salvation was either 'walking an aisle' or praying a certain prayer. Now praying is both right and good but if you ask them to tell you why they think their saved and they state 'I prayed a prayer' PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.. follow up and ask how did the prayer save you? You will find in many cases where they will say - I don't know or shrug their shoulders.

When a person doesn't know when they were saved (I'm not talking about minutes and seconds here but the place and moment) or worse - why they were saved.. someone needs to present the gospel to these people in a way that expounds sin, reveals our depravity and deserving of hell, as well as the purpose the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. That it is our crying our His mercy and total and absolute depenance upon His finished work that saves, which of course is so done through prayer. And if God is working in/on their hearts they can be saved.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Uh.. maybe from Christ who always gave men the opportunity to respond?

Or maybe from the apostles who also gave men the opportunity to respond to the messages they gave. Otherwise what is the point of giving your message.. to hear the sound of your own voice?

Hence my use of quotation marks around the word invitation. I just don't the connection between a Biblical invitation to come to Christ and the modern Finneyesque 'altar call.'