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Am I in sin?
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Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Proverbs 20:1 answers your qusetion, Archangel...
NLT Proverbs 20:1 Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.
The wine and strong drink of Deuteronomy 14 is not the same wine that produces mockers. Nor is it the strong drink that leads to brawls.
The strong drink and wine that God said the Israelites could purchase did not have the ability to intoxicate.
NLT Proverbs 20:1 Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.
The wine and strong drink of Deuteronomy 14 is not the same wine that produces mockers. Nor is it the strong drink that leads to brawls.
The strong drink and wine that God said the Israelites could purchase did not have the ability to intoxicate.
How do you reconcile that with this?
Romans 14: KJB
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
The following is a generalization but one based on facts:
Americans drink to get a buzz, or to get drunk. Binge drinking is common. Europeans drink as part of a meal, and teach their children to drink this way.
In the US, people are overfed and undernourished. It is a scientific fact that saturated fat causes heart disease and cancer. How many who are railing against drinking a wine or beer are doing so with a bacon double cheeseburger in their hand? Are you willing to give up such so as not to damage your witness?
I find it amazing and hypocritical that at church suppers you can have all the fatty foods that anyone would desire, with enough fat to instantly clog arteries and cause cardiac arrest, but don't let anyone bring a bottle of wine in.
Americans drink to get a buzz, or to get drunk. Binge drinking is common. Europeans drink as part of a meal, and teach their children to drink this way.
In the US, people are overfed and undernourished. It is a scientific fact that saturated fat causes heart disease and cancer. How many who are railing against drinking a wine or beer are doing so with a bacon double cheeseburger in their hand? Are you willing to give up such so as not to damage your witness?
I find it amazing and hypocritical that at church suppers you can have all the fatty foods that anyone would desire, with enough fat to instantly clog arteries and cause cardiac arrest, but don't let anyone bring a bottle of wine in.
guess that we are no longer person accountible for our own behaviour, eh?
guess that we can no longer drive, play sports, go hunting, as ALL have caused death and accidents!
many baptists have done bibklical gymnastics though to try to get that to be seen as "good grape juice!"
don't feel bad, as I still can't find the greek text that says that the bread and juice actualy physically change either to his flesh and blood !
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Then perhaps you should look for the different Hebrew words for wine, sweet wine, strong drink, etc?
i agree with you!
You missed my point, as that some people who bend over backwardsto prove jesus turned it to grape juice, also some bend over backwards to try to get jesus actually saying tne communion changing to real blood and flesh!
No sweetie my last reply was not in reply to you it was in reply to some one telling me to look up other words like strong drink.
I agree with you on the backflips. God says do not get drunk, he does not say alcohol is sin. Alcohol has medicinal uses too. For example, I have nerve damage in my neck and lower back. The doc has given me a choice. a wine cooler when things get really bad (I am already allowed 1000 mg advil 3xs a day) or go on a heavy pain pill that I MUST take daily and risk becoming addicted to. I find a wine cooler when the pain is really bad works and see no need to risk addiction or dependence on pills. I need a wine cooler ( I suppose a shot of vodka or something would work but don't like keeping stuff in the house) now and then (less than 1 a month normally unless I really over do things). Though the looks I get when I go in to buy 1 wine cooler at the quick mart are hilarious.
As to the other, I refuse to get into that discussion because I find
applies.
Similarly I will not debate KJVO VS all comers either.
Have you tried Kedem....failing that, punt with Welshes.:thumbs:
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Yes, because "Strong Drink" was a really a brand name for Welch's Grape Juice in the olden days and not an indication of alcohol. :BangHead:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Of course, you've missed the phrase of the second clause: "Those led astray by drink..."
This text is warning against the abuse of or addiction to alcohol. It isn't commanding teetotalism.
This is almost comical--and it reveals your presuppositions quite well. You seem to think that alcohol itself is the problem so you try to redefine words--and the text of scripture itself--to fit your presuppositions, rather than have your presuppositions informed by Scripture.
In both the Deuteronomy passage and the Proverbs passage, the word for wine is יַ֫יִן and the word for strong drink is שֵׁכָר.
Wine (Heb: yayin) always refers to an alcoholic drink, containing, perhaps, 7-10% alcohol. The alcoholic content of wine today tends to be much more, but yayin is not simply "Grape Juice." If it were simply grape juice, there would be no need to use the same word in Proverbs.
Strong Drink (Heb: sekar) refers to an alcoholic beverage made from grain or, perhaps, a fruit other than grapes, and it is--by definition--an alcoholic drink. This probably translates to our modern "beer."
There are other words that refer to that which is taken in by drinking. But, that's not the issue here.
Your statement that the wine and strong drink of Deuteronomy and the wine and strong drink of Proverbs is wrong because the Hebrew words in both passages are the same...
The "wine" and "strong drink" of Deuteronomy 14 and the "wine" and "strong drink" of Proverbs 20 are the same wine and strong drink--and the warning against drunkenness in Proverbs 20 tells us, without a doubt, that the wine and strong drink of Deuteronomy 14 was, indeed, alcoholic.
Therefore, your statement is proven false. Read the text for itself.
The Archangel
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The issue in the text you cite is not alcohol. Rather, the issue is not being a stumbling block to your brothers and sisters in Christ.
If you look at the whole passage, many things jump out:
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:13-23, ESV)
Verse 14 tells us that nothing is "unclean" in and of itself. So, alcohol, pork (for a Jew), etc. is not unclean by definition. However, there are people who will be uncomfortable with such things--Jews who are believers in Christ who are still uncomfortable with pork, etc. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:13-23, ESV)
The entire thrust of the passage demonstrates that the one with the problem, who takes offense at the eating of pork or the drinking of alcohol, is what is called "the weaker brother" in v. 1 of the chapter.
The issue, then, is the stronger brother looking down on the weaker brother or making that weaker brother uncomfortable by what the stronger brother eats or drinks.
The issue here is liberty and license. All Christians have the liberty to eat or drink anything. No Christian has the license to eat or drink whatever he or she pleases IF that eating or drinking will damage the weaker believer.
There is a familial analogy here: I like to watch the TV series The Walking Dead. During the season when it airs, it's on at 9:00 PM. Now, I have two young daughters who are usually falling asleep in the living room at that time. As the dad do I have the "right" to watch whatever I want? Sure. As the dad--looking our for the "weaker" people in my family--do I insist that I watch that show at that time? NO WAY! Why? Because the concept of Zombies, etc. will do unnecessary damage to my daughters--nightmares, etc. So...I willingly miss the 9:00 PM airing of the show so that my daughters do not suffer nightmares. Do I watch the show later? Yes, when my girls are in bed. Some day, years from now, might I watch the DVDs of The Walking Dead with my girls in, perhaps, their high school years? Sure. But...then they'd be "strong" enough to handle it, knowing it is fiction and being able to process it properly.
The issue with alcohol is the same. Do I have the liberty to drink? Yes. Do I have a license to drink? No. In either case, I have neither the liberty nor license to get drunk. But let's say there's someone in my church who's been a believer for a short time and he came out of a situation where alcohol was not abused, per se, but taken often and was for the purposes of getting drunk. He might, as being weaker in the faith, equate alcohol with the sinfulness of his past. As the stronger brother, is there any way I'm going to insist on an alcoholic drink if we meet together at a restaurant? No. If in a few years he grows in his faith to the point where he is accepting of alcohol as long as one does not get drunk, would I share a drink with him at a local restaurant? Perhaps. Of course, for an alcoholic, drinking is a sin--only because it will always lead to drunkenness...but that's a different issue entirely.
The Archangel
PS. My "drink" of choice is Coca-Cola. When I want a treat, I order a Coke with no ice. I don't think any alcoholic beverage would or could taste better than that.
Oldtimer are you a vegetarian? If not how do you reconcile not eating flesh? Do you condemn as outside the word those of us who enjoy a good steak?Originally Posted by Oldtimer
How do you reconcile that with this?
Romans 14: KJB
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Archangel is right. The point is to not purposely do things to make others stumble.
My drink of choice is sweet southern iced tea. I use alcohol not as a recreational item but as a medicinal one.
BTW, Ive got an excess of dandelions on the property & so Ive been using them to feed the chickens. High in vitamin A & C & Beta Carotene. It struck me that you can also make wine with them....anyone have instructions on how to do that?
One other note....you can use them in salads, with vinaigrette!:laugh:
One other note....you can use them in salads, with vinaigrette!:laugh:
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