"Fromtheright" thanks for the input. I know you were not debating some of the following but I would like to clarify a few things. For myself and others who may not be quite familiar.
Original quote=fromtheright]
..........Thomas Jefferson, whose views on the First Amendment should be neither taken as authoritative on the meaning of the establishment clause nor misconstrued, wrote convincingly that "It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg...for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god."
A: You are correct, 1) Jefferson should not be taken as the authority on the First Amendment. As it was other's involved with it's creation, debates, and ultimate language. Also he was in France during the time. 2) The Danbury letter and Jefferson letter, which had the wall of separation metaphor, took place 14 years
after the Bill of Rights and First Amendment had been ratified. The letter was basically a reassurance to the Danbury Baptists they would enjoy religious freedom and equality with other Christian denominations.
The problem is, in the last 50 plus years people have twisted or used the “wall of separation” metaphor, to attack Christianity in the public arena. They have in effect re-written the First Amendment by ignoring historical facts and 150 years of correct interpretation. The result has been some grossly inaccurate Court rulings which have snowballed into other court rulings. Justice Rehnquist outlines this in Wallace v. Jaffree(1985). Pointing out the mess such bad interpretations has created which the Court now has to contend with. A link can be found at bottom for his statements.
B: In regards to the Jefferson quote "It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg...for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god." The two sentences are actually back-wards but he was speaking of religious freedoms within Virginia. Which along with the Declaration of Independence were his self-proclaimed greatest accomplishments. His views were not quite in line with the other Founding Fathers. IE: He called for no public days of Thanksgiving to God while Congress and other Founders/Presidents did so regularly. His later bid for Office was very contentious with being called an atheist or sympathizer of such, none of which was true.
His “Notes on Virginia” 1781, also dealt with wildlife/politics/geography in addition to religion. In regards to religion and continuing from the above quote Jefferson went on to say:
“If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man……Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion by bringing every false one to their tribunal……let us reflect that it(earth) is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one…that if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. To make way for these, free inquiry must be indulged…Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York…have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful…It has answered beyond conception. They flourished infinitely. Religion is well supported to preserve peace and order…”
I just thought this may serve to clarify a few things.
original quote= fromtheright:
As to the history you noted, Everson v. Board of Education had nothing to do with school prayer. Also, what they relied on was not "new language", but was rather a mistaken view of the proper meaning and influence of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance".
You mistook me here. I was referencing Engel v. Vitale(1962) in regards to removal of voluntary school prayer. As noted, they admit nothing in the Constitution or history called for it to be stricken. So they used language found in cases such as Everson(1947), which is what I noted.
Everson was a landmark in which they basically
re-defined the First Amendment. By misinterpreting the Jefferson metaphor of separation, as you so eloquently stated. It should have never been used in the first place. Rehnquist offers some excellent insight on the problems such has caused with the courts. He also give some excellent insight in regards to the First Amendment and Constitutional history. It is a little long but worth printing out and highlighting the major points.
http://www.tourolaw.edu/PATCH/Wallace/
Rehnquist:
"..It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history, but unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years...".
He goes on to briefly explain why Jefferson and his metaphor is a poor source, by explaining Other's prominent role with the First Amendment, the process, and factual events. One doesn't really need his opinion as a Mass of History shows all this and more.
Rehnquist:
...It seems indisputable from these glimpses of Madison's thinking, as reflected by actions on the floor of the House in 1789, that he saw the Amendment as designed to prohibit the establishment of a national religion, and perhaps to prevent discrimination among sects(Christian). He did not see it as requiring neutrality on the part of government between religion and irreligion. Thus the courts opinion in Everson....is totally incorrect...
This in regards to the the Bill of Rights/First Amendment.
Continuing:
None of the other Members of Congress who spoke during the August 15th debate expressed the slightest indication that they thought the language before them...would require that the Government be absolutey neutral as between religion and irreligion..
Rehnquist goes on to explain the problems with such bad interpretations and problems it puts upon the Court. For those who are interested you should read.
Y'all have a great upcoming Fourth of July. God Bless America. :thumbs: Ralph
raise: