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America Is A Christian Nation And Founding Fathers
- Thread starter Ralph III
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BTW: LE
I did not answer your question about Islam and the US.
In a word....NO.
Of course we are not to submit to Sharialaw, but we would be unchristian to try and overthrow it or rebel against it. Please take note of your history. The early Christians DID NOT try to overthrow Rome. They paid a dear price for refusing to worship any other but Christ, yet they still obeyed their government in every other way.
I think what most of you folks are missing is the difference between church and State. When the two mix, we should not mix it up as well. Obey Government, yet worship God. If that costs you your life, then praise God! This is what True Christians have always done.
I did not answer your question about Islam and the US.
In a word....NO.
Of course we are not to submit to Sharialaw, but we would be unchristian to try and overthrow it or rebel against it. Please take note of your history. The early Christians DID NOT try to overthrow Rome. They paid a dear price for refusing to worship any other but Christ, yet they still obeyed their government in every other way.
I think what most of you folks are missing is the difference between church and State. When the two mix, we should not mix it up as well. Obey Government, yet worship God. If that costs you your life, then praise God! This is what True Christians have always done.
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Eric B:
"And when the Church government wouldn't change from the inside out, then Luther broke away and had his own church, just like the colonists.
What I am trying to understand here is where you draw the line between "rebellion" and "obeying God rather than men".
Jim:
I draw the line exactly where Jesus did. He advocated obeying the government in civil matters yet worshipping God in spiritual matters. Have you not read where He said this? "Render unto Ceasar..."
I have bolded the portion of you words that makes my point. Luther was not advocating a new form of government made in the image of man. In fact, Luther went on to establish a Church-State that was just as evil as the Romish Church-State. For we know that he persecuted they who disagreed with him, i.e. Jews, Anabaptists, etc. So, I think that ultimately, your use of Luther as an example to support your argument kind of falls apart at the seams, don't you?
I do not agree that Luther is a very good role model to justify rebellion against a government at all. He wasn't what I would call a Biblical Christian. He was in fact, just another Catholic out for power.
"And when the Church government wouldn't change from the inside out, then Luther broke away and had his own church, just like the colonists.
What I am trying to understand here is where you draw the line between "rebellion" and "obeying God rather than men".
Jim:
I draw the line exactly where Jesus did. He advocated obeying the government in civil matters yet worshipping God in spiritual matters. Have you not read where He said this? "Render unto Ceasar..."
I have bolded the portion of you words that makes my point. Luther was not advocating a new form of government made in the image of man. In fact, Luther went on to establish a Church-State that was just as evil as the Romish Church-State. For we know that he persecuted they who disagreed with him, i.e. Jews, Anabaptists, etc. So, I think that ultimately, your use of Luther as an example to support your argument kind of falls apart at the seams, don't you?
I do not agree that Luther is a very good role model to justify rebellion against a government at all. He wasn't what I would call a Biblical Christian. He was in fact, just another Catholic out for power.Apology accepted AV. But, nevermind what anyone says on this thread. The fact is, America is no longer a Christian nation and the historical premise of whether America was or wasn't founded as a Christian nation no longer matters in 2006. See my post here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=33307
To say I'm vexed is to put it mildly.
Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=33307
To say I'm vexed is to put it mildly.
Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.
LE:
I already saw it. I agree.
I quit praying God would bless us long ago. I now ask Him to "straighten us out before we get too far."
Sorta like this....
How long Lord will you let this Nation, which professes to be one of liberty, continue to blaspheme you and kill its own children?
"They worship Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me", He says.
"Behold, I come quickly"
Go ye into all the world..."
And so...I do.
I already saw it. I agree.
I quit praying God would bless us long ago. I now ask Him to "straighten us out before we get too far."
Sorta like this....
How long Lord will you let this Nation, which professes to be one of liberty, continue to blaspheme you and kill its own children?
"They worship Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me", He says.
"Behold, I come quickly"
Go ye into all the world..."
And so...I do.
To quote a scripture like this (as well ast the oft cited 2 Chron.7:14) at this country is to be treating them like it was in fact a "Christian nation", or a church, even. I read LE's thread, and the utter shock that we would do these things acts as if everyone is Christian. What's wrong with these Americans/Christians? The fact is, most people are not Christians. They do not even profess to "honor Him with their lips". Just as in the Bible, God's people are still a relatively "small flock" in the world. A large number do not even profess to be, and others are admittedly culturally Christian, and basically eclectic (all religions are the same, etc). That's just the way it was in the past, with the founders varied beliefs. The difference was people obeyed "Christian morality" more, at least outwardly, and even then, they were selective about it in some areas (slavery, colonialism, the rebellion you are debating about, etc). This disillusionment with the country is the natural fruit of the "Christian America" doctrine, and should show us that it is wrong. We expect too much from a society of fallen people.
And also, this whole notion that God will destroy only us because of our sin, when all have sinned; so once again, we are some special covenant nation God is being extra strict with. Else, if God destroys every nation that sins like us, then He will basically be ending this world and bringing in the next one (which most of us are professing to be waiting on anyway), and then our prayer is not that He saves only this nation, which would only happen if it became perfectly Christian, which it never was and never will be, and the nation God had an actual covenant with failed at being what God brought then perfect kingdom in through. We are not even the same as Biblical Israel, which was a theocratic nation where everyone was mandated to profess worship of God by their birth in the nation, but of course many were far from Him, and the whole lesson of that is that physical nations are not what God is dealing with, and not the solution for man, but rather a spiritual nation! Rather than Israel, America is more like Nineveh, and you all are bing like Jonah. So all of these people today are basically living out their beliefs. As Michael Horton, Beyond Culture Wars points out, why are we mad at the world for being "worldly"? Out job is to be witnesses to then for Christ, but instead it seems we want to just be able to snap our fingers and have everyone respond as Christians.
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Marcia
Active Member
El_Guero said:
So does this justify rebellion against the government? I don't see biblical support for that. Once again, I point toward the early Christians. Maybe it was "a wee bit more complicated" but the bottom line is that they did not lead a rebellion or teach it, at least in the Bible. That is, the Bible does not tell Christians to submit to the government unless it's a bad one, or one we disagree with.
Sorry so slow in replying and addressing some posts as this is my first opportunity. I appreciate the input and “everyone’s” opinion.
My original post was in regards to debating this as a secular nation(void of God) versus a Christian nation. My original intent was not on theological terms, as noted. But instead what would you call America as definitely not based on secularism. However some interesting theological points have been given. This will be two posts because of length, sorry. Please due note 1 Kings 11:26 and 2 Sam. 23:3.
I would like to clarify something with my last post as it was done a little hastily and not complete. Though LadyEagle has since brought up some of the points I wanted to make and have made. In addition, I stated, “…the notion God rejects all rebellion is not biblical”. I would like to clarify in saying I do not believe, God see’s “all” rebellion as sinful. Rebellion or civil disobedience is the rejection of authority whether by arms or not. There are those who are trying to limit the definition but rebellion or civil disobedience is synonymous. There is no doubt God see’s such as sinful but is it always sinful or is it ever acceptable? I believe in some instances it is acceptable and as shown in the Bible. As surely there will come a time in which you either stand for God or you stand for the World.
A) THE ARGUMENT OF “CHRISTIAN NATION”:
Av1611jim, you make good points but your premise is incorrect and null to the given subject. You really should also reconsider some of your statements.
1) FIRST: Even if the revolution was wrong, it would have been a sinful act by them!
Thus your statement that it could not have been Christian is erroneous! To say Christians do no rebel is the same as saying we do not sin! We most definitely sin. Lest you wish to boast of your deeds and discredit the notion “all” have fallen short of the glory of God. No man born, except Jesus among us, has ever lived without sin. No sin committed, except against the Holy Spirit, is unforgivable. Matt 12:31, Mark 3:28.
To say they could not have been Christian, thus nation not based on Christianity, because they rebelled and possibly sinned is absolutely wrong. It is simply judging others. Jesus said
2) SECOND: America was a Christian nation long before the revolution!
This as noted earlier and as brought up by LadyEagle. The pilgrims were also our forefathers and the mayflower compact stated the founding of this nation/country as “
They vowed to establish this new country for the Glory of God and to advance the Christian faith! This is a definitive statement and goal. Yes they noted in honor of King and Country, but God is of a higher calling. They swore this compact before God and themselves. You’ll also note they “combine” themselves into a “Body Politik” in order to insure the general good of the “colony”. They did such as a conglomeration and not simply under one King of England.
Note the mention of France, Ireland, and Scotland. The Pilgrims fled to America in order to escape religious intolerance and other persecutions. This was the case for most every settler who came to America during the long period BEFORE the revolution. Many of whom were from countries other than England.
Over time America had taken upon its own unique society and was already independent of England, in many ways. Not everybody, including leaders, recognized or appreciated the rule of the Kind of England. The British recognized this and tried to re-establish its control over the colonies through aggressive, repressive and tyrannical means. Beginning some ten years before the revolution and up to the Boston massacre.
Your entire premise is wrong in regards to the subject and really goes to another topic.
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B) IS REBELLION OR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE EVER JUSTIFIABLE?
If so at what point? It is debatable whether our revolution was a sinful act or not. Whether God saw the rebellion as sinful, justifiable, or initiated it, lies solely with Him. Many Christians/theologians saying it was. While other Christians/theologians saying it wasn’t and that is was justifiable. Such was heavily debated during the time also. So this is not a new notion and falls upon theological lines. You will likely find strong opinions with Baptist v. Baptist v. Presbyterian v. Lutheran v. Others etc, in this regards.
What of the American leaders who did not come from England? Who may or may not have recognized the Kings rule. But saw themselves independent and bound by the rules they had established in America? What of the people who came from other nations or who were born in America and already saw themselves as independent. Or who may have only recognized the established authority as found in their community?
Did all these sin when they joined in the revolution against England? What of those who fought against America after we had declared independence and had elected officials? Did those people who fought against the elected Founders and authority, then sin?
Were we absolutely bound to England and its King? What of those authorities who settled England before the King? Should we have ultimately recognized their authority, be they who they may, as they were before the King of England? All is applicable and in regards to your statement, that we are a nation of rebels.
The Founders, and religious leaders, understood their undertaking and weighed it heavily. The Declaration of Independence reflects these views. It states our sovereign nature as before the revolution and the Kings usurpations of our people, laws, and authorities with tyrannical acts. They called upon God to protect them in this endeavor as stated in the declaration,
But the fact stands that America was established as an independent nation and overcame one of the greatest military powers ever. The Nation is arguably one of the most free and blessed nations ever! Thus I most definitely believe God played a role in its founding.
Continue with next post, sorry. Ralph
My original post was in regards to debating this as a secular nation(void of God) versus a Christian nation. My original intent was not on theological terms, as noted. But instead what would you call America as definitely not based on secularism. However some interesting theological points have been given. This will be two posts because of length, sorry. Please due note 1 Kings 11:26 and 2 Sam. 23:3.
I would like to clarify something with my last post as it was done a little hastily and not complete. Though LadyEagle has since brought up some of the points I wanted to make and have made. In addition, I stated, “…the notion God rejects all rebellion is not biblical”. I would like to clarify in saying I do not believe, God see’s “all” rebellion as sinful. Rebellion or civil disobedience is the rejection of authority whether by arms or not. There are those who are trying to limit the definition but rebellion or civil disobedience is synonymous. There is no doubt God see’s such as sinful but is it always sinful or is it ever acceptable? I believe in some instances it is acceptable and as shown in the Bible. As surely there will come a time in which you either stand for God or you stand for the World.
A) THE ARGUMENT OF “CHRISTIAN NATION”:
Av1611jim, you make good points but your premise is incorrect and null to the given subject. You really should also reconsider some of your statements.
1) FIRST: Even if the revolution was wrong, it would have been a sinful act by them!
Thus your statement that it could not have been Christian is erroneous! To say Christians do no rebel is the same as saying we do not sin! We most definitely sin. Lest you wish to boast of your deeds and discredit the notion “all” have fallen short of the glory of God. No man born, except Jesus among us, has ever lived without sin. No sin committed, except against the Holy Spirit, is unforgivable. Matt 12:31, Mark 3:28.
To say they could not have been Christian, thus nation not based on Christianity, because they rebelled and possibly sinned is absolutely wrong. It is simply judging others. Jesus said
2) SECOND: America was a Christian nation long before the revolution!
This as noted earlier and as brought up by LadyEagle. The pilgrims were also our forefathers and the mayflower compact stated the founding of this nation/country as “
They vowed to establish this new country for the Glory of God and to advance the Christian faith! This is a definitive statement and goal. Yes they noted in honor of King and Country, but God is of a higher calling. They swore this compact before God and themselves. You’ll also note they “combine” themselves into a “Body Politik” in order to insure the general good of the “colony”. They did such as a conglomeration and not simply under one King of England.
Note the mention of France, Ireland, and Scotland. The Pilgrims fled to America in order to escape religious intolerance and other persecutions. This was the case for most every settler who came to America during the long period BEFORE the revolution. Many of whom were from countries other than England.
Over time America had taken upon its own unique society and was already independent of England, in many ways. Not everybody, including leaders, recognized or appreciated the rule of the Kind of England. The British recognized this and tried to re-establish its control over the colonies through aggressive, repressive and tyrannical means. Beginning some ten years before the revolution and up to the Boston massacre.
Your entire premise is wrong in regards to the subject and really goes to another topic.
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B) IS REBELLION OR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE EVER JUSTIFIABLE?
If so at what point? It is debatable whether our revolution was a sinful act or not. Whether God saw the rebellion as sinful, justifiable, or initiated it, lies solely with Him. Many Christians/theologians saying it was. While other Christians/theologians saying it wasn’t and that is was justifiable. Such was heavily debated during the time also. So this is not a new notion and falls upon theological lines. You will likely find strong opinions with Baptist v. Baptist v. Presbyterian v. Lutheran v. Others etc, in this regards.
What of the American leaders who did not come from England? Who may or may not have recognized the Kings rule. But saw themselves independent and bound by the rules they had established in America? What of the people who came from other nations or who were born in America and already saw themselves as independent. Or who may have only recognized the established authority as found in their community?
Did all these sin when they joined in the revolution against England? What of those who fought against America after we had declared independence and had elected officials? Did those people who fought against the elected Founders and authority, then sin?
Were we absolutely bound to England and its King? What of those authorities who settled England before the King? Should we have ultimately recognized their authority, be they who they may, as they were before the King of England? All is applicable and in regards to your statement, that we are a nation of rebels.
The Founders, and religious leaders, understood their undertaking and weighed it heavily. The Declaration of Independence reflects these views. It states our sovereign nature as before the revolution and the Kings usurpations of our people, laws, and authorities with tyrannical acts. They called upon God to protect them in this endeavor as stated in the declaration,
They prayed often that God would intercede on their behalf, to praise Him, and in asking forgiveness for their transgressions. So they understood the magnitude of their actions and possible consequences!
But the fact stands that America was established as an independent nation and overcame one of the greatest military powers ever. The Nation is arguably one of the most free and blessed nations ever! Thus I most definitely believe God played a role in its founding.
Continue with next post, sorry. Ralph
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continued from previous post.
Yes rebellion and civil disobedience is wrong but is it always wrong or sinful? Or are there certain times in which such is justifiable? AV16IIjim I appreciate your posts, and in no way am I ridiculing you. You stated God hates rebellion in “any form” and that such is always wrong. You said “God NEVER approves of rebellion”. However most of your verses, indeed with rebellion as listed throughout the Bible, is rebellion against God or His will. Many of the same verses could actually serve to justify the other side of this argument.
Your notion God “NEVER” approves of “rebellion” is absolutely refuted in 1 Kings 11:26. As King Solomon turned from Gods way and people then began rebelling against him. It is absolutely and specifically noted Jereboam’s actions were of "rebellion" with God justifying and sanctioning it. Though Jereboam did also later sin against God himself.
Now Jereboam, made ruler by God, did not walk in Gods ways and thus also incurred the Lords wrath as other Kings.
The Lord speaks upon Rulers and Kings as having to be “just” toward its people and to observe Gods word.
Yes Rome was evil during Jesus’ time on earth. But Rome did indeed fall, from within and out! A great change took place in that nation. Which had accepted all god’s except the one true God. Christianity was outlawed and Christians were killed for sport. Yet the Apostles and followers continued to faithfully serve the Lord and spread His good news. Do you seriously believe they were sinning and should have been stopped or punished for such?
What of the Jews and Christians who were persecuted and executed by the Nazi’s during World War II? Would you have hidden such people or turned them over to the ruling authorities as required? Because to do otherwise would have been civil disobedience and/or rebellious.
What of the Christians and citizens who fought against these despicable regimes and their leaders to eventually overthrow them? Were they sinning to act against such Godless and horrific leaders?
C) TO ELABORATE WITH MOSES: We do not see it as rebellion because the Bible does not denote is as such and was an act of God. However it was a rejection of Pharaohs oppressive authority and he was the ruler of the people and land. Surely he saw such it rebellious as otherwise he would have never had a problem releasing them in the first place? He did eventually release Moses and the people but only upon being shown God's destructive power. He then of course changed his mind, bad decision by him!
D) WITH THE REFORMATIONS AND LUTHER/CALVIN, OTHERS. They went against the Church and Leaders thus did not fully accept the authority which was. They saw them as corrupt individually and with biblical doctrine. They sought to get right with God and the teachings of the Bible. To say “all” rebellion, civil disobedience, or disrespect of authority is always wrong, is to say these men and our system of religion is sinful. As their actions were surely seen as disobedient to the established. Again, at some point you will either stand for God or you will stand for the World.
Yes disobedience or rebellion is wrong! But to say “all” rebellion or civil disobedience is always wrong, is again I believe not biblical.
I will continue calling my nation a Christian nation until I feel it is no longer. At that point all references to God will have been removed. With our leaders forced never to call upon the Lord. Or the Nation and its leaders restricted from ever praying publicly to God. Or any mention of Him to be made in the public. Now that is truly evil and surely what satan would like. We will only get more legislation such as abortion, polygamy, euthanasia, child porn, gay marriage etc, etc the further we stray from the Lord or enable our government to.
I have never said America was formed as a Christian theocracy. I have said America was a Christian nation as it was founded by Christians, a nation of Christians, and on Christian principles. Our history of laws, customs, and heritages is reflective of such and always has been. I have only advocated us in maintaining and recognizing our Christian heritage with the founding of this Nation.
Pure secularism(Godless) will be the end of our nation as we know it. Evil arises where God is not present.
I pray our nation and leaders continue to recognize the supreme authority of our Lord. I would pray they would continue to publicly ask God's guidance and blessings. When they stop doing such things, I will stop calling it a Christian nation.
Take care.:wavey:
In Christ, Ralph
Yes rebellion and civil disobedience is wrong but is it always wrong or sinful? Or are there certain times in which such is justifiable? AV16IIjim I appreciate your posts, and in no way am I ridiculing you. You stated God hates rebellion in “any form” and that such is always wrong. You said “God NEVER approves of rebellion”. However most of your verses, indeed with rebellion as listed throughout the Bible, is rebellion against God or His will. Many of the same verses could actually serve to justify the other side of this argument.
Your notion God “NEVER” approves of “rebellion” is absolutely refuted in 1 Kings 11:26. As King Solomon turned from Gods way and people then began rebelling against him. It is absolutely and specifically noted Jereboam’s actions were of "rebellion" with God justifying and sanctioning it. Though Jereboam did also later sin against God himself.
His rebellion was foretold by a prophet of the Lord, whose name was Ahijah. God explained
Now Jereboam, made ruler by God, did not walk in Gods ways and thus also incurred the Lords wrath as other Kings.
The Lord speaks upon Rulers and Kings as having to be “just” toward its people and to observe Gods word.
Yes Rome was evil during Jesus’ time on earth. But Rome did indeed fall, from within and out! A great change took place in that nation. Which had accepted all god’s except the one true God. Christianity was outlawed and Christians were killed for sport. Yet the Apostles and followers continued to faithfully serve the Lord and spread His good news. Do you seriously believe they were sinning and should have been stopped or punished for such?
What of the Jews and Christians who were persecuted and executed by the Nazi’s during World War II? Would you have hidden such people or turned them over to the ruling authorities as required? Because to do otherwise would have been civil disobedience and/or rebellious.
What of the Christians and citizens who fought against these despicable regimes and their leaders to eventually overthrow them? Were they sinning to act against such Godless and horrific leaders?
C) TO ELABORATE WITH MOSES: We do not see it as rebellion because the Bible does not denote is as such and was an act of God. However it was a rejection of Pharaohs oppressive authority and he was the ruler of the people and land. Surely he saw such it rebellious as otherwise he would have never had a problem releasing them in the first place? He did eventually release Moses and the people but only upon being shown God's destructive power. He then of course changed his mind, bad decision by him!
D) WITH THE REFORMATIONS AND LUTHER/CALVIN, OTHERS. They went against the Church and Leaders thus did not fully accept the authority which was. They saw them as corrupt individually and with biblical doctrine. They sought to get right with God and the teachings of the Bible. To say “all” rebellion, civil disobedience, or disrespect of authority is always wrong, is to say these men and our system of religion is sinful. As their actions were surely seen as disobedient to the established. Again, at some point you will either stand for God or you will stand for the World.
Yes disobedience or rebellion is wrong! But to say “all” rebellion or civil disobedience is always wrong, is again I believe not biblical.
I will continue calling my nation a Christian nation until I feel it is no longer. At that point all references to God will have been removed. With our leaders forced never to call upon the Lord. Or the Nation and its leaders restricted from ever praying publicly to God. Or any mention of Him to be made in the public. Now that is truly evil and surely what satan would like. We will only get more legislation such as abortion, polygamy, euthanasia, child porn, gay marriage etc, etc the further we stray from the Lord or enable our government to.
I have never said America was formed as a Christian theocracy. I have said America was a Christian nation as it was founded by Christians, a nation of Christians, and on Christian principles. Our history of laws, customs, and heritages is reflective of such and always has been. I have only advocated us in maintaining and recognizing our Christian heritage with the founding of this Nation.
Pure secularism(Godless) will be the end of our nation as we know it. Evil arises where God is not present.
I pray our nation and leaders continue to recognize the supreme authority of our Lord. I would pray they would continue to publicly ask God's guidance and blessings. When they stop doing such things, I will stop calling it a Christian nation.
Take care.:wavey:
In Christ, Ralph
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Marcia
Active Member
Ralph III said:
But Ralph, this was all initiated by God, not man!
The people didn't rebel of their own accord - God raised up people to go against Solomon because of his worship of false gods. This is not rebellion intiated by man; this is God punishing Solomon. God directly had men rise up against Solomon. We cannot use this passage to justify rebellion today.
Yes, but does that mean it's okay to rebel if they aren't just? I don't think God gives that command.
I'm not agreeing with you that saving lives by hiding the Jews was rebellion. It was disobedience but that is not the same as rebellion, imo.
God taking the people out of Egypt with miraculous power is hardly analogous to rebellion today. For one thing, God initiated it! That makes all the difference! There is no way to rationally justify rebellion using God delivering the people held in captivity in Egypt.
This was not rebellion against a government. That's what we are talking about here, not disagreeing with corrupt religious leaders and sticking to God's word.
Perhaps I am incorrect, but I thought the King of England/Church of England were one and the same at the time of the American revolution.
Also, Marcia, in hindsight you are looking back at what you perceive to be a rebellion against a government.
At the time, though, it was regarded by some, as you say, as a disgreement with "corrupt religious leaders and sticking to God's word."
See the link here:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel03.html
It was a lot more involved than any of us sitting here in 2006 realize.
And, if God will not bless rebellion, as you call it, then why has He blessed our nation throughout the centuries? Perhaps it wasn't a rebellion just against a government, after all, like the history revisionists have taught for the past decades.
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LE; Interesting link.
I would still counter with;
Show me ONE Scripture where Christians are given permission by God to rebel against the ruling authorities.
By the way;
The thing that struck me most about Ralph's post is that somehow it seems he is advocating that it is okey-dokey with God if unbelievers rebel. And to answer hismost telling question is...YES! I do expect the unsaved to act righteous. Doesn't God? Else WHY would He even have bothered with the Cross? And YES, He DOES judge nations or cities for their sin. See Sodom and Gomorah, and Egypt, and Tyre for examples. He also judges kings. See Beltashazar for example.
I fully expect the judgment of God upon THIS nation soon, if it hasn't already begun. See the rampant homosexual advances and abortion and various and sundry pestilences of late.
I do not find rebellion either approved or sanctioned by God in Scripture for ANYBODY. Ralph, your examples of Rehoboam etc. are not germaine in my opinion. Marcia has stated why and I agree with her.
I would still counter with;
Show me ONE Scripture where Christians are given permission by God to rebel against the ruling authorities.
By the way;
The thing that struck me most about Ralph's post is that somehow it seems he is advocating that it is okey-dokey with God if unbelievers rebel. And to answer hismost telling question is...YES! I do expect the unsaved to act righteous. Doesn't God? Else WHY would He even have bothered with the Cross? And YES, He DOES judge nations or cities for their sin. See Sodom and Gomorah, and Egypt, and Tyre for examples. He also judges kings. See Beltashazar for example.
I fully expect the judgment of God upon THIS nation soon, if it hasn't already begun. See the rampant homosexual advances and abortion and various and sundry pestilences of late.
I do not find rebellion either approved or sanctioned by God in Scripture for ANYBODY. Ralph, your examples of Rehoboam etc. are not germaine in my opinion. Marcia has stated why and I agree with her.
As you recall, those four men were commanded by the king to worship the king as god. Hence, those four men said (in effect) "We ought to obey God rather than man".
On the other hand; can you show that King George did the same as the aforementioned king?
If you cannot, then your strawman just got burned!
On the other hand; can you show that King George did the same as the aforementioned king?
If you cannot, then your strawman just got burned!
In 1776 the goal of the colonists was not independence but restoration of rights within the British Empire. They still referred to themselves as the United Colonies and flew the Grand Union flag, a combination of thirteen American stripes with the Union Jack.
Many in the Continental Congress still hoped that Parliament would allow self-government within the empire, or at the least representation. Many Americans, including Washington, had served alongside the British during the French & Indian war and had always considered themselves British subjects. American Captain Alexander Graydon said in 1776 that, " Had even George III himself been among us, he would have been in no great danger of personal injury".
After British troops fired on Americans at Lexington; after German (Hessian) troops ransacked homes and took whatever they wanted; after British soldiers raped a good many American woman in New Jersey, and when Americans who surrendered at Ft. Washington were bayonetted, that tended to change everything. They felt that they had no choice but to fight for independence.
Some of you are evidently saying that our country was formed in defiance of God’s will, and I contend that is not so. Think of this; God is opposed to divorce, and it is His will that divorce not occur. But a man (or a woman) can drive away their mate through mistreatment, and the injured party feels they have no choice but to leave. The patriots felt that they had no choice.
While serving with British General Braddock at the battle of Monongahela, Washington had two horses shot out from under him and four bullets through his coat, and survived without a scratch. During the war for independence he held a ragtag little army together and defeated a much larger force of British & Germans, all of them veterans of numerous battles in Europe. Washington himself certainly believed that God had intervened on their behalf many times. – "The commander-in-chief recommends that the troops not on duty should universally attend with that seriousness of deportment and gratitude of heart which the recognition of such reiterated and astonishing interpositions of Providence demand of us."
Many in the Continental Congress still hoped that Parliament would allow self-government within the empire, or at the least representation. Many Americans, including Washington, had served alongside the British during the French & Indian war and had always considered themselves British subjects. American Captain Alexander Graydon said in 1776 that, " Had even George III himself been among us, he would have been in no great danger of personal injury".
After British troops fired on Americans at Lexington; after German (Hessian) troops ransacked homes and took whatever they wanted; after British soldiers raped a good many American woman in New Jersey, and when Americans who surrendered at Ft. Washington were bayonetted, that tended to change everything. They felt that they had no choice but to fight for independence.
Some of you are evidently saying that our country was formed in defiance of God’s will, and I contend that is not so. Think of this; God is opposed to divorce, and it is His will that divorce not occur. But a man (or a woman) can drive away their mate through mistreatment, and the injured party feels they have no choice but to leave. The patriots felt that they had no choice.
While serving with British General Braddock at the battle of Monongahela, Washington had two horses shot out from under him and four bullets through his coat, and survived without a scratch. During the war for independence he held a ragtag little army together and defeated a much larger force of British & Germans, all of them veterans of numerous battles in Europe. Washington himself certainly believed that God had intervened on their behalf many times. – "The commander-in-chief recommends that the troops not on duty should universally attend with that seriousness of deportment and gratitude of heart which the recognition of such reiterated and astonishing interpositions of Providence demand of us."
No straw man. You made a statement that in Scripture you could not find where rebellion was approved or sanctioned for ANYBODY by God. The Hebrew children proves your statement to be wrong, Brother AV. I can cite others, if need be.I already posted the link above which shows the American Revolution had religious roots, wanting to obey God rather than the King, who, King George and the Church of England were both corrupt. If you study true historical facts instead of revisionism history, you will see that is correct. You can even read some of the writings by those who lived during that time at the link.See the link here:http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel03.htmlav1611jim said:
Great Post, NiteShift, BTW.
Marcia
Active Member
I never said, "God will not bless rebellion." I think that was Jim - it was not I.
God may have blessed us despite what we did. Also, the wicked prosper as well.
I don't think that it is a logical argument to say that because of our prosperity and power, God has necessarily endorsed what we did.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, Marcia.
I would not say our forefathers were wicked. If anything, they were more conscious of God and Jesus Christ in their daily lives and were more morally righteous than the majority of people who live in this nation today.
I would not say our forefathers were wicked. If anything, they were more conscious of God and Jesus Christ in their daily lives and were more morally righteous than the majority of people who live in this nation today.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
LadyEagle said:
All mankind is, by nature, wicked and there is nothing good in them. It is God's grace and mercy that we have any blessings at all...and that goes for all of us, including you, me, and the founders of this nation.
Joseph Botwinick
- Status