America Is A Christian Nation And Founding Fathers

Exactly. :thumbs:

BTW, I DO get it, AV1611jim. Why don't you get that I get it?:tongue3: Seems like you took what I wrote and then re-wrote it in your own words, lol.:laugh:

 

Lady Eagle;
Forgive me. I guess the way you had worded your point, I misunderstood.
Me so sorry longtime Joe.

 

BTW: LE
I did not answer your question about Islam and the US.
In a word....NO.
Of course we are not to submit to Sharialaw, but we would be unchristian to try and overthrow it or rebel against it. Please take note of your history. The early Christians DID NOT try to overthrow Rome. They paid a dear price for refusing to worship any other but Christ, yet they still obeyed their government in every other way.

I think what most of you folks are missing is the difference between church and State. When the two mix, we should not mix it up as well. Obey Government, yet worship God. If that costs you your life, then praise God! This is what True Christians have always done.

 

Eric B:
"And when the Church government wouldn't change from the inside out, then Luther broke away and had his own church, just like the colonists.
What I am trying to understand here is where you draw the line between "rebellion" and "obeying God rather than men".

Jim:
I draw the line exactly where Jesus did. He advocated obeying the government in civil matters yet worshipping God in spiritual matters. Have you not read where He said this? "Render unto Ceasar..."

I have bolded the portion of you words that makes my point. Luther was not advocating a new form of government made in the image of man. In fact, Luther went on to establish a Church-State that was just as evil as the Romish Church-State. For we know that he persecuted they who disagreed with him, i.e. Jews, Anabaptists, etc. So, I think that ultimately, your use of Luther as an example to support your argument kind of falls apart at the seams, don't you? I do not agree that Luther is a very good role model to justify rebellion against a government at all. He wasn't what I would call a Biblical Christian. He was in fact, just another Catholic out for power.

 

Apology accepted AV. But, nevermind what anyone says on this thread. The fact is, America is no longer a Christian nation and the historical premise of whether America was or wasn't founded as a Christian nation no longer matters in 2006. See my post here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=33307

To say I'm vexed is to put it mildly.

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.

 

LE:

I already saw it. I agree.
I quit praying God would bless us long ago. I now ask Him to "straighten us out before we get too far."

Sorta like this....
How long Lord will you let this Nation, which professes to be one of liberty, continue to blaspheme you and kill its own children?

"They worship Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me", He says.
"Behold, I come quickly"
Go ye into all the world..."

And so...I do.

 

To quote a scripture like this (as well ast the oft cited 2 Chron.7:14) at this country is to be treating them like it was in fact a "Christian nation", or a church, even. I read LE's thread, and the utter shock that we would do these things acts as if everyone is Christian. What's wrong with these Americans/Christians? The fact is, most people are not Christians. They do not even profess to "honor Him with their lips". Just as in the Bible, God's people are still a relatively "small flock" in the world. A large number do not even profess to be, and others are admittedly culturally Christian, and basically eclectic (all religions are the same, etc). That's just the way it was in the past, with the founders varied beliefs. The difference was people obeyed "Christian morality" more, at least outwardly, and even then, they were selective about it in some areas (slavery, colonialism, the rebellion you are debating about, etc). This disillusionment with the country is the natural fruit of the "Christian America" doctrine, and should show us that it is wrong. We expect too much from a society of fallen people.
And also, this whole notion that God will destroy only us because of our sin, when all have sinned; so once again, we are some special covenant nation God is being extra strict with. Else, if God destroys every nation that sins like us, then He will basically be ending this world and bringing in the next one (which most of us are professing to be waiting on anyway), and then our prayer is not that He saves only this nation, which would only happen if it became perfectly Christian, which it never was and never will be, and the nation God had an actual covenant with failed at being what God brought then perfect kingdom in through. We are not even the same as Biblical Israel, which was a theocratic nation where everyone was mandated to profess worship of God by their birth in the nation, but of course many were far from Him, and the whole lesson of that is that physical nations are not what God is dealing with, and not the solution for man, but rather a spiritual nation! Rather than Israel, America is more like Nineveh, and you all are bing like Jonah. So all of these people today are basically living out their beliefs. As Michael Horton, Beyond Culture Wars points out, why are we mad at the world for being "worldly"? Out job is to be witnesses to then for Christ, but instead it seems we want to just be able to snap our fingers and have everyone respond as Christians.

 

So does this justify rebellion against the government? I don't see biblical support for that. Once again, I point toward the early Christians. Maybe it was "a wee bit more complicated" but the bottom line is that they did not lead a rebellion or teach it, at least in the Bible. That is, the Bible does not tell Christians to submit to the government unless it's a bad one, or one we disagree with.

 

But Ralph, this was all initiated by God, not man!

The people didn't rebel of their own accord - God raised up people to go against Solomon because of his worship of false gods. This is not rebellion intiated by man; this is God punishing Solomon. God directly had men rise up against Solomon. We cannot use this passage to justify rebellion today.

Yes, but does that mean it's okay to rebel if they aren't just? I don't think God gives that command.

I'm not agreeing with you that saving lives by hiding the Jews was rebellion. It was disobedience but that is not the same as rebellion, imo.

God taking the people out of Egypt with miraculous power is hardly analogous to rebellion today. For one thing, God initiated it! That makes all the difference! There is no way to rationally justify rebellion using God delivering the people held in captivity in Egypt.

This was not rebellion against a government. That's what we are talking about here, not disagreeing with corrupt religious leaders and sticking to God's word.

 

Perhaps I am incorrect, but I thought the King of England/Church of England were one and the same at the time of the American revolution.

Also, Marcia, in hindsight you are looking back at what you perceive to be a rebellion against a government.

At the time, though, it was regarded by some, as you say, as a disgreement with "corrupt religious leaders and sticking to God's word."

See the link here:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel03.html

It was a lot more involved than any of us sitting here in 2006 realize.

And, if God will not bless rebellion, as you call it, then why has He blessed our nation throughout the centuries? Perhaps it wasn't a rebellion just against a government, after all, like the history revisionists have taught for the past decades.

 

LE; Interesting link.
I would still counter with;
Show me ONE Scripture where Christians are given permission by God to rebel against the ruling authorities.
By the way;
The thing that struck me most about Ralph's post is that somehow it seems he is advocating that it is okey-dokey with God if unbelievers rebel. And to answer hismost telling question is...YES! I do expect the unsaved to act righteous. Doesn't God? Else WHY would He even have bothered with the Cross? And YES, He DOES judge nations or cities for their sin. See Sodom and Gomorah, and Egypt, and Tyre for examples. He also judges kings. See Beltashazar for example.

I fully expect the judgment of God upon THIS nation soon, if it hasn't already begun. See the rampant homosexual advances and abortion and various and sundry pestilences of late.

I do not find rebellion either approved or sanctioned by God in Scripture for ANYBODY. Ralph, your examples of Rehoboam etc. are not germaine in my opinion. Marcia has stated why and I agree with her.

 

Aha! What about Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? :smilewinkgrin:

 

As you recall, those four men were commanded by the king to worship the king as god. Hence, those four men said (in effect) "We ought to obey God rather than man".
On the other hand; can you show that King George did the same as the aforementioned king?

If you cannot, then your strawman just got burned!

 

In 1776 the goal of the colonists was not independence but restoration of rights within the British Empire. They still referred to themselves as the United Colonies and flew the Grand Union flag, a combination of thirteen American stripes with the Union Jack.

Many in the Continental Congress still hoped that Parliament would allow self-government within the empire, or at the least representation. Many Americans, including Washington, had served alongside the British during the French & Indian war and had always considered themselves British subjects. American Captain Alexander Graydon said in 1776 that, " Had even George III himself been among us, he would have been in no great danger of personal injury".

After British troops fired on Americans at Lexington; after German (Hessian) troops ransacked homes and took whatever they wanted; after British soldiers raped a good many American woman in New Jersey, and when Americans who surrendered at Ft. Washington were bayonetted, that tended to change everything. They felt that they had no choice but to fight for independence.

Some of you are evidently saying that our country was formed in defiance of God’s will, and I contend that is not so. Think of this; God is opposed to divorce, and it is His will that divorce not occur. But a man (or a woman) can drive away their mate through mistreatment, and the injured party feels they have no choice but to leave. The patriots felt that they had no choice.

While serving with British General Braddock at the battle of Monongahela, Washington had two horses shot out from under him and four bullets through his coat, and survived without a scratch. During the war for independence he held a ragtag little army together and defeated a much larger force of British & Germans, all of them veterans of numerous battles in Europe. Washington himself certainly believed that God had intervened on their behalf many times. – "The commander-in-chief recommends that the troops not on duty should universally attend with that seriousness of deportment and gratitude of heart which the recognition of such reiterated and astonishing interpositions of Providence demand of us."

 

No straw man. You made a statement that in Scripture you could not find where rebellion was approved or sanctioned for ANYBODY by God. The Hebrew children proves your statement to be wrong, Brother AV. I can cite others, if need be.I already posted the link above which shows the American Revolution had religious roots, wanting to obey God rather than the King, who, King George and the Church of England were both corrupt. If you study true historical facts instead of revisionism history, you will see that is correct. You can even read some of the writings by those who lived during that time at the link.See the link here:http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel03.html

Great Post, NiteShift, BTW.

 

I never said, "God will not bless rebellion." I think that was Jim - it was not I.

God may have blessed us despite what we did. Also, the wicked prosper as well.

I don't think that it is a logical argument to say that because of our prosperity and power, God has necessarily endorsed what we did.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, Marcia.

I would not say our forefathers were wicked. If anything, they were more conscious of God and Jesus Christ in their daily lives and were more morally righteous than the majority of people who live in this nation today.

 

All mankind is, by nature, wicked and there is nothing good in them. It is God's grace and mercy that we have any blessings at all...and that goes for all of us, including you, me, and the founders of this nation.

Joseph Botwinick