America Is A Christian Nation And Founding Fathers

[Eric B]

Oh, I wasn't discussing the version; I was discussing the movement (and poster whose name seems to reflect being part of that movement) that is named after it, and their position on the "Christian America" theory.

 

[Marcia]

Regarding Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt....

That is not a valid analogy at all. The Jews were foreigners in Egypt and did not originally come from there. They were made into literal slaves. Also, Moses was told by God to take them out of Egypt - this was all clearly initiated by God.

However, the colonists in America rejected the King of their country (England) and rebelled against him. They fought a war to become independent of their King.

Isn't this clearly going against the established government teachings of Rom. 13? After all, the early Christians were under some very harsh rulers who were persecuting and even killing them, but they did not rebel. So why is it okay that the colonists rebelled?

 

[Marcia]

Isn't anyone going to answer my question?

 

[av1611jim]

I thought that KJVO's as old-line fundamentalist as they are, believed in the notion of Christian America (and were the biggest purveyors of it, blaming everyone else for destroying it, or turning it secular).
And as for rebellion; what about the Reformation? Or do KJVO's pass by that with claims of an underground Baptist Church that existed side by side with Rome and never broke away from it?

I don't know who this "THEY" is that you refer to. All I know is that nothing good ever came out of rebellion, Scripturally speaking.

Obviously you don't know a whole bunch about history either. The "Reformation" was not about throwing off a government, per se, as much as it was a re-awakening to Scripture. As Scripture became more available to people they in turn challenged the unbiblical abuses by the Roman Chruch. Granted, The Roman Church held political power, yet the Reformers were not in rebellion to their rulers outside of Scriptural principles. i.e. "We ought to obey God rather than man." The Reformers were not interested in changing government as much as they were interested in changing a CHURCH!

That scenario just simply was NOT the case in the rebellion of the Colonies. Twist, spin, dance, dodge, deflect, revise all you care to, but the simple truth is that GOD DOES NOT BLESS REBELLION.

I have already posted the relevant Scriptures.

Deal with them. Your straw men should be in Hollywood. They make great stand-ins for Dorothy's Scarecrow buddy.:laugh:

 

[av1611jim]

Isn't anyone going to answer my question?

Marcia;
They dare not answer lest they appear to make God a liar. OR.....
They dare not answer lest they have to admit that the Colonial Rebellion which founded our nation was in no way a 'Christian' thing to do and hence they would have to re-think their long and dearly held position. Oh my!!! THAT would sure injure someone's pride a bit would it not?

Perhaps there is something MORE to being a Christian than swallowing the "Party Rhetoric" Hmmmmmmm?

 

[LadyEagle]

http://moseshand.com/studies/mctod.htm

The Jews were foreigners in Egypt and did not originally come from there. They were made into literal slaves.

But on the other hand, they had been there for 400 years....So all of the people of the Exodus were literally born in Egypt.....

As far as an American Rebellion, there had been repeated appeals and pleas to England and the final Declaration of Independence was heavily debated because the Americans, for the most part, still considered themselves to be Americans AND British/part of England. Revisionist history has turned this into something different than what actually led up to the war.

 

[corndogggy]

That's one flaw that everybody tries to bring up when they try to say that our founding fathers were Christian - trying to prove it by proving that they belived in a personal god. Well, yes, they did, but many of them did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, meaning that they were Deists, not Christians. There's a difference.

 

[av1611jim]

http://moseshand.com/studies/mctod.htm



But on the other hand, they had been there for 400 years....So all of the people of the Exodus were literally born in Egypt.....

As far as an American Rebellion, there had been repeated appeals and pleas to England and the final Declaration of Independence was heavily debated because the Americans, for the most part, still considered themselves to be Americans AND British/part of England. Revisionist history has turned this into something different than what actually led up to the war.

Still does not address the issue.

The ISSUE is that God HATES rebellion.

Deal with it. So far nobody that professes that we are a "Christian nation" has adequately faced the issue head on.

Stop ducking, bobbing and weaving. "Rope-a-dope" will note work in this areana. It is dishonest (at best) to claim we were FOUNDED on Christian principles in light of this one fact. Rebellion.

The FACT is that we rebelled AGAINST God when we rebelled against His appointed minister. i.e. King George. Romans 13

 

[RockRambler]

It would probably be more accurate to say we were founded on MASONIC principles as to say we were founded on CHRISTIAN principles.

(I say that as someone who was a 32nd degree Mason, before I was saved)

 

[Eric B]

I don't know who this "THEY" is that you refer to. All I know is that nothing good ever came out of rebellion, Scripturally speaking.

Obviously you don't know a whole bunch about history either. The "Reformation" was not about throwing off a government, per se, as much as it was a re-awakening to Scripture. As Scripture became more available to people they in turn challenged the unbiblical abuses by the Roman Chruch. Granted, The Roman Church held political power, yet the Reformers were not in rebellion to their rulers outside of Scriptural principles. i.e. "We ought to obey God rather than man." The Reformers were not interested in changing government as much as they were interested in changing a CHURCH!

That scenario just simply was NOT the case in the rebellion of the Colonies. Twist, spin, dance, dodge, deflect, revise all you care to, but the simple truth is that GOD DOES NOT BLESS REBELLION.

I have already posted the relevant Scriptures.

Deal with them. Your straw men should be in Hollywood. They make great stand-ins for Dorothy's Scarecrow buddy.:laugh:

I'm not trying to Twist, spin, dance, dodge, deflect, revise, erect a straw man, etc. I myself, always thought it was hypocritical to see old-line Fundamentalists (IFB, and KJV Only advocates--that's who the "THEY" were) and others speak of our "Christian origins" and ignore the rebellion of the revolution, especially when they spend so much time blasting the "rebellion" of the 60's generation to the present, which they see as destroying this "Christian heritage".
So that's why I was surprised to see you deny the Christian America theory. I thought you all believed in it. Well, at least it's nice to see someone who is consistent. I myself have always rejected that idea as well. It totally misorients our perspective into thinking our job is to save the nation through opposing the liberals, or whatever. All peoples have sinned, and the only "Christian nation" is the spiritual nation Peter describes in 1 Pet.2:9.

The Reformers may not have been in rebellion to the form of Church government (after all, Luther was trying to reform the RCC from within, but this shows they still went along with the unbiblical notion of a state church). However, when he went against their doctrine and they did not change it for him, then he was in rebellion against their authority, and "we ought to obey God rather than man" is rebellion (against the "man" you are not obeying) justified by God under the premise that the "man" in that case has forfeited his God-given authority through persecution of the truth or otherwise using it to oppose God. You could say then "that is not rebellion, because you are on God's side", but that is basically semantics.

 

[LadyEagle]

The Mayflower Compact

But you who say we were not founded as a Christian Nation have overlooked the Mayflower Compact:

Agreement Between the Settlers at New Plymouth : 1620
IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience. IN WITNESS whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape-Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, Anno Domini; 1620.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/amerdoc/mayflower.htm


You are forgetting that we were not founded on rebellion, we were founded as a colony for "the Glory of God and Advancement of the Christian Faith."

The Declaration of Independence did not come until over 150 years later, when the original founders of this colony, America, were all dead and buried.

 

[LadyEagle]

In his diary entry dated February 22, 1756, John Adams wrote:

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God...What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/jadams.html

Amen, Brother Adams.

 

[corndogggy]

But you who say we were not founded as a Christian Nation have overlooked the Mayflower Compact:

You are forgetting that we were not founded on rebellion, we were founded as a colony for "the Glory of God and Advancement of the Christian Faith."

The Declaration of Independence did not come until over 150 years later, when the original founders of this colony, America, were all dead and buried.

Did I miss something? Are we still ruled by England? America was founded when we broke free of England and its religious persecution. If you want to go back further than that, then the original founders were actually the Native Americans... maybe we should incorporate their religious beliefs according to your way of thinking. At the least, unless you can prove that the original Native Americans were Christians... with your style of thinking, this was not a Christian nation.

 

[av1611jim]

Quote: ""The Reformers may not have been in rebellion to the form of Church government (after all, Luther was trying to reform the RCC from within, but this shows they still went along with the unbiblical notion of a state church). However, when he went against their doctrine and they did not change it for him, then he was in rebellion against their authority, and "we ought to obey God rather than man" is rebellion (against the "man" you are not obeying) justified by God under the premise that the "man" in that case has forfeited his God-given authority through persecution of the truth or otherwise using it to oppose God. You could say then "that is not rebellion, because you are on God's side", but that is basically semantics.""
_____________________________________________________________

Semantics baloney!

Can you Biblically show how the Sanhedrin "forfeited" their authority?

Remember that Saul was in rebellion against God for over 38 years after David was annointed by Samuel, yet God never removed him from authority.
Though God "rejected" Saul from being king of Israel, God never REMOVED him from leadership of that nation until Saul DIED.

You say " "we ought to obey God rather than man" is rebellion ..." but that is not so, for if it were then God has contradicted Himself and you make God a liar. Besides, Luther was still under subjection to that government wherein he found himself. He did not try to OVERTHROW it. His focus was on changing it from within, as you so clearly pointed out.

In any case, King George was still the ruling authority. The Colonies' WAR was to make a government in their OWN image rather than subjecting themselves to the mighty and loving hand of God, and TRUSTING HIM for the results. That is what Christians do. Haven't you read anything of the early church and what THEY endured? I dare say they had it much worse than our founders, yet they did not lead rebellion against Rome! They trusted He who knows the end from the beginning and who knows the very number of hairs on our heads.

Besides, can anybody on this board who is convinced that we, The USA, are a Christian nation; honestly say that Jesus would have advocated the rebellion of the Colonies? HE WHO said love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you and do good to them who hate you?

I trow not.

By the way. When painting KJVo's and IFB's with such a broad brush as you have, sometimes you get paint on yourself! Remeber that, won't you?

 

[av1611jim]

But you who say we were not founded as a Christian Nation have overlooked the Mayflower Compact:






http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/amerdoc/mayflower.htm


You are forgetting that we were not founded on rebellion, we were founded as a colony for "the Glory of God and Advancement of the Christian Faith."

The Declaration of Independence did not come until over 150 years later, when the original founders of this colony, America, were all dead and buried.

I am not forgetting anything LE. But prehaps you ought to RE-READ the portion you, yourself, have bolded!
The people of the Mayflower Compact honored their King and country!!! They were not in rebellion and did not rebel as did the "Founding Fathers".
As a matter of fact, they had no plans to start a new nation, but in fact they came for religious freedom and the spread of the gospel. A NEW government was not their intent, as their own words so clearly point out!

Do the words "Our Sovereign Lord King James" sound like they were founding a new government???

 

[LadyEagle]

I am not forgetting anything LE. But prehaps you ought to RE-READ the portion you, yourself, have bolded!
The people of the Mayflower Compact honored their King and country!!! They were not in rebellion and did not rebel as did the "Founding Fathers".
As a matter of fact, they had no plans to start a new nation, but in fact they came for religious freedom and the spread of the gospel. A NEW government was not their intent, as their own words so clearly point out!

Do the words "Our Sovereign Lord King James" sound like they were founding a new government???

Hey, wait a minute and take a deep breath here! That was the point I was trying to make - They were not in rebellion. Unless I am going blind, the premise some have made on this thread was that America was founded on rebellion - I posted about the Mayflower Compact to show that just the opposite is true - it was not founded on rebellion AND, they were, indeed, Christians. You can't have it both ways, either America was founded as Christian or it wasn't. The Mayflower Compact shows the whole idea of founding America was for "the Glory of God and Advancement of the Christian Faith."

Next question: If America becomes an islamic republic, are Christians to submit to the authority of allah and sharia law, or are we to "obey God rather than man?"

 

[Marcia]

Hey, wait a minute and take a deep breath here! That was the point I was trying to make - They were not in rebellion. Unless I am going blind, the premise some have made on this thread was that America was founded on rebellion - I posted about the Mayflower Compact to show that just the opposite is true - it was not founded on rebellion AND, they were, indeed, Christians.

When the first colonists came and signed that Mayflower Compact, they were founding the country for England, not as a separate country apart from the rule of England. It was not the US then! It only became independent and became the US when it rebelled against the King.

You can't have it both ways, either America was founded as Christian or it wasn't. The Mayflower Compact shows the whole idea of founding America was for "the Glory of God and Advancement of the Christian Faith."

Right, and they changed it with the Revolution when they broke away.

Next question: If America becomes an islamic republic, are Christians to submit to the authority of allah and sharia law, or are we to "obey God rather than man?"

I don't think England was making people follow the Anglican Church here in the early colonies. After all, they gave land to Fox for Quakers (PA), to Roger Williams for Baptists (RI), to whoever for MD to be Catholic, the Methodists went to Ga, etc.

Only if a government forbids you to preach Jesus, do you refuse to submit. But that is not open rebellion as in overthrowing the government or fighting it with arms.

What did the early Christians do? Did they lead a rebellion? No, they refused to submit and suffered the consequences. That is why they are martyrs.

 

[El_Guero]

When the first colonists came and signed that Mayflower Compact, they were founding the country for England, not as a separate country apart from the rule of England. It was not the US then! It only became independent and became the US when it rebelled against the King.

Uh . . . they were not the first . . . but, they were separatists.

Right, and they changed it with the Revolution when they broke away.

It was a weee bit more complicated than that.

I don't think England was making people follow the Anglican Church here in the early colonies. After all, they gave land to Fox for Quakers (PA), to Roger Williams for Baptists (RI), to whoever for MD to be Catholic, the Methodists went to Ga, etc.

Only if a government forbids you to preach Jesus, do you refuse to submit. But that is not open rebellion as in overthrowing the government or fighting it with arms.

Yes, England was making people follow the Anglican Church here in the early colonies Baptists were placed in stocks for preaching and they were imprisoned for preaching . . . and we still preached through the jail cell windows . . . And until about 1840 we (Baptists) had to pay taxes to support the Anglican clergy.

What did the early Christians do? Did they lead a rebellion? No, they refused to submit and suffered the consequences. That is why they are martyrs.

Again, a weeee bit more complicated than that.

 

[av1611jim]

The Pilgrims of the Mayflower Compact were NOT here to establish "America" as a Christian nation.

Do the words "Our Sovereign Lord King James" mean anything at all to you Lady Eagle. You posted those words, not I. No, you do not get my point at all!

The people of the Mayflower are not the SAME people as those referred to as our "Founding Fathers". They are only seperated by about 150 YEARS!

The United States of America was founded on rebellion against King GEORGE! Not King James. King James was looooooong dead by then. "He stinketh by now..."

Do you get it now?

 

[Eric B]

Semantics baloney!

Can you Biblically show how the Sanhedrin "forfeited" their authority?

Remember that Saul was in rebellion against God for over 38 years after David was annointed by Samuel, yet God never removed him from authority.
Though God "rejected" Saul from being king of Israel, God never REMOVED him from leadership of that nation until Saul DIED.

You say " "we ought to obey God rather than man" is rebellion ..." but that is not so, for if it were then God has contradicted Himself and you make God a liar. Besides, Luther was still under subjection to that government wherein he found himself. He did not try to OVERTHROW it. His focus was on changing it from within, as you so clearly pointed out.

In any case, King George was still the ruling authority. The Colonies' WAR was to make a government in their OWN image rather than subjecting themselves to the mighty and loving hand of God, and TRUSTING HIM for the results. That is what Christians do. Haven't you read anything of the early church and what THEY endured? I dare say they had it much worse than our founders, yet they did not lead rebellion against Rome! They trusted He who knows the end from the beginning and who knows the very number of hairs on our heads.

Besides, can anybody on this board who is convinced that we, The USA, are a Christian nation; honestly say that Jesus would have advocated the rebellion of the Colonies? HE WHO said love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you and do good to them who hate you?

I trow not.

And when the Church government wouldn't change from the inside out, then Luther broke away and had his own church, just like the colonists.
What I am trying to understand here is where you draw the line between "rebellion" and "obeying God rather than men".

By the way. When painting KJVo's and IFB's with such a broad brush as you have, sometimes you get paint on yourself! Remeber that, won't you?

I am not the one who painted them that way. Every time I see them they are complaining about the modern society and church, as if we were once a Christian society. Perhaps rather than a "Christian America", you believe in a "Christian British kingdom"? (Hence why you are so against the American revolution)?
Well, all have sinned, and I wonder if you oppose the British (and the rest of Europe's) conquest of much of the world. Many people condone that, but then only condemn "rebellion" against it, as if conquest was of God (His means of "giving" certain people material favor) and didn't violate His commandments.
Its that sort of inconsistent double standard that leads people to rebel in the firdt place. Then appealing to "just trust God" is misused to guarantee the dominance of whoever is in power under the premise that God wants them in power, which leads to the inference that perhaps God favors them.
I'm not saying we should be overthrowing governments, and we can look to the exampple of the early Christians, but this is not to be used by or in favor of professing "Christian" governements to maintain others' oppression.

Next question: If America becomes an islamic republic, are Christians to submit to the authority of allah and sharia law, or are we to "obey God rather than man?"

Good point. And the same could have been asked about Communism. 20 years ago, many of the same people telling the oppressed to "trust God" were sure up in arms about the "threat" of them taking over, as well as the claim of them already influencing our government, media, education system, etc. Then, we bragged of taking them down.
Is the opposition of a government only wrong when it has already conquered you?