America Is A Christian Nation And Founding Fathers

AMerica is not a Christian nation. No nation on earth is. America has been blessd in many ways, including a Christian heritage from many of its early founders and the input of many christians in all sorts of positions in government and other parts of life.

It has benefitted from the freedom it has had in religious matters, in the preaching of the Gospel by many gifted and talented men. But, as a country it is not Christiian.


And no, it is not an attack on America or Americans, You have much of whicjh you can be proud as a nation, and if every nation lived to the same standard as the US does then the world would be a much better place.

Regards
Bob - from Australia, another country that isn'r Christian, but enjoys much from its Christian heretage.

 

I wish I could give you full marks on arguing your point Ralph. Whether I agree with you or not - you have done very well in arguing your side of the debate. The best, in fact, that I have seen in a long time.


However I differ on your quote above - "The Constitution could easily be seen as a prayer." This point is REALLY stretching it. You simply can't fit God into the Constitution, He really isn't there. The date is just that - a date - full stop.

On another point -

Do you agree with the part of the DofC where we read "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, " or do you believe Romans 13 where we read "The powers that be are ordained of God?"

 

It is true that America was founded on Christian principles. The country had just benefitted from the Great Awakening which I believe was necessary to the unity and perseverence that was needed to establish the new nation.

Ralph has done very well in pulling together quotes to support his factual statements in this regard. Most of the founding fathers were either Christian or sympathetic with the Christian religion in its various forms. Ben Franklin is a good example of someone who, although not Christian, believed in an Almighty God that could intercede in the affairs of men.

The quote attributed to Franklin from the Constitutional Convention was a key statement that was made at a critical point in the proceedings when the success of the venture was very much in doubt. By calling the convention to prayer, he established the practice that was continued forward into the Congress of prayer before the start of the day's business.

Jefferson, though not a Christian man, as evidenced by some of his own writings, did sound very Christian in many instances. I believe this was because of the deep Christian faith in many of the people around him. Jefferson was a politician, remember. I do believe that his quotes though, reflect the predominent feelings of the people at that time. For those who doubt the genuousness of these quotes, look at the wall of the Jefferson Memorial sometime.

It is a true statement that such a government required the altruistic bent of the true follower of Christ in order to be successful. We see this attitude in several of the founding fathers - most notably George Washington. That it is not to be seen now has resulted in a severe weakening of our liberty which will continue. True freedom requires a responsible populace. Government by the people and for the people requires Christian principles in leadership so the leaders really work for the people instead of for themselves. This was the ideal of the founding fathers.

To understand the difference between the American and French revolutions I think you need go no further than the great Christian influence on our culture at that time. The French did not have this influence and their revolution turned bad very quickly.

Dave

 

I'm with C4K and JBot on this one!!

As for God in His sovereign will establishing a theocracy----well---He did and does rule there by theocracy!! Its a place called Heaven---and its "smooth operation" probably won't "dawn upon" KenH until he's been there about a million years----then he'll discover just how good he has it there in a land of theocracy!! Where God sits on the throne unopposed!!

 

Yep, the problem with theocratic rule on Earth is the fact that those who speak for God mostly speak only for themselves. Better to have secular government than tyranical theocracy.

 

Yes---but you've gotta know this!!!! The Lord Jesus Christ will come to Earth again and will rule with His theocracy!!! Unopposed and with the notible absence of tyrany!!!! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!!! Amen???!!!

 

But until then, we don't need no theocracies!

 

I will upset the apple cart, I am sure.

This nation, in spite of all the quotes from our founders, never has been founded upon 'Christian principles'.

I can confidently say this because the very premise of our founding was rebellion against England.

No 'true' Christian will advocate rebellion against God's Word.

Exhibit A:

Ro 13:1
¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Ro 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro 13:5
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Ro 13:6
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Ro 13:7
¶ Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Paul wrote this when Rome was in power and it actively sought to destroy Christians outright.

Note the bolded portions.

I have been fiercely opposed many times for my pointing this out in similar discussions. Nevertheless, the truth is that God HATES rebellion.

De 31:27
For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
De 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
De 31:29
For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

God is very specific. He HATES rebellion, in any form. We are a nation of rebels. We never were 'Christian'.

If the foundation be corrupted, then the whole house is faulty and cannot stand, just as Jesus said. We are witnessing this in our time.:tear:

 

av1611jim, I have often wondered about this since I became a Christian.

What do the rest of you think about our nation being Christian when it was started by a rebellion against its rulers?

 

A government that is not for God is a government that is against God.

 

America Is A Christian Nation And the Founding Fathers were Christians (for the most part *).

* Some were Anglican! So if you do not believe that Catholics can go to heaven, some of our Founding Fathers did not go.

 

At best, the majority of your founding fathers were Deists. They employed religion in all activities of life. It was the expected thing to do.

We could better claim England as being a "Christian" nation in that the Queen is the Head of the Church of England, and the Archbishop is virtually appointed by parliament.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Ralph III;
In regards to rebellion. Moses lead God's people out of bondage which most definetly represented rebellion. Nor does God expect Christians to accept or promote evil as found with nations. So the notion God rejects all rebellion is not biblical. God demands we as people and nations to recongnize his authority. He blesses those who do and judges those who do not.


Me;
You are so wrong sir. Moses , you recall was called PERSONALLY by God. Can you honestly say our founders were? In the second place, Moses was called to fulfill PROPHECY. Recall that God foretold that he would call out his people? do you see any such thing concerning US? In addition, what God did for Moses and the children of Isreal in no way implys a principle wherewith we can assume that rebellion is okey-dokey with God. Do a word search. God NEVER approves of rebellion. It is NOT Christian to rebel against rulers whether they be godly or evil. Remeber the context of Paul's writing? It was during the reign of ROME!!! Imperial Rome, not Ecclesiastical Rome.

Yea, and all that will live godly IN CHRIST JESUS SHALL SUFFER persecution. I see nothing there that says, "But if you don't like it you could always lead a revolt against the God ordained rulers." Rom. 13.

I have heard this baloney for years and it is a lie from the pit of hell. We are NOT and NEVER were Christian, nor were we founded on Christian principles. Christians do not rebel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Moses and the children of Israel stayed in Egypt until they had received permission from Pharaoh to leave.

 

I wonder if they who claim to use Moses' example to justify our rebellion against the King of England have thought of this? I also wonder if our founders did, being the 'good christian men' they were?

 

I thought that KJVO's as old-line fundamentalist as they are, believed in the notion of Christian America (and were the biggest purveyors of it, blaming everyone else for destroying it, or turning it secular).
And as for rebellion; what about the Reformation? Or do KJVO's pass by that with claims of an underground Baptist Church that existed side by side with Rome and never broke away from it?

 

Moderator Note: This is not a versions forum. If you wish to discuss versions, please do so in the appropriate forum.

Thanks,
Lady Eagle
Moderator