Another thing a Calvinist has never done.

[utilyan]

REPENT.

HE cannot repent. He cannot be in a bad state and say what I am doing is wrong I need to change my ways.

PAST TENSE. REPENT mean YOU change your mind. He cannot repent, God must REPENT.

Instead God has to zap him first into a GOOD state of grace, SAVED, And he can ONLY LOOK back and say I was bad. HE HIMSELF cannot REPENT.

He can't say sorry God for my evil heart, Only sorry God that I HAD an evil heart.


Acts 3

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2

38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Instead they believe the OPPOSITE ORDER.
Therefore let your sins be wiped away THEN you can repent.
Receive the gift of the holy spirit THEN repent

 

[Scott Downey]

Your talking about the old man of the flesh which does the works of the flesh.
The new man of the spirit is what is born of God and redeemed, God does not redeem our sinful bodies, he will give us new ones. Nothing of the old man will remain eventually, except for the memories.

Even after a man is born again, they can do some works of the flesh and be sorry for them (repent), but they cant practice or love those ways and also be born again, that would grate against their true nature which is now of peace from God and righteousness having become slaves of God.

That new man of the spirit is alive and will grow into the knowledge of God.

These people who are pricked in their hearts, means God has created in them the consciousness of their evil ways of the flesh, as inwardly they have been enlightened in their new inner man to their wretched sinful state. So they repent of the evil they have done, and believe God has forgiven them all of their sins, and are then sealed in the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption and this is guaranteed to them as they can sense the peace they now have with God and Christ, they know Him and He knows them.

 

[MB]

REPENT.

HE cannot repent. He cannot be in a bad state and say what I am doing is wrong I need to change my ways.

PAST TENSE. REPENT mean YOU change your mind. He cannot repent, God must REPENT.

Instead God has to zap him first into a GOOD state of grace, SAVED, And he can ONLY LOOK back and say I was bad. HE HIMSELF cannot REPENT.

He can't say sorry God for my evil heart, Only sorry God that I HAD an evil heart.


Acts 3

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2

38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Instead they believe the OPPOSITE ORDER.
Therefore let your sins be wiped away THEN you can repent.
Receive the gift of the holy spirit THEN repent

True this will never happen.
MB

 

[MB]

Your talking about the old man of the flesh which does the works of the flesh.
The new man of the spirit is what is born of God and redeemed, God does not redeem our sinful bodies, he will give us new ones. Nothing of the old man will remain eventually, except for the memories.

Even after a man is born again, they can do some works of the flesh and be sorry for them (repent), but they cant practice or love those ways and also be born again, that would grate against their true nature which is now of peace from God and righteousness having become slaves of God.

That new man of the spirit is alive and will grow into the knowledge of God.

These people who are pricked in their hearts, means God has created in them the consciousness of their evil ways of the flesh, as inwardly they have been enlightened in their new inner man to their wretched sinful state. So they repent of the evil they have done, and believe God has forgiven them all of their sins, and are then sealed in the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption and this is guaranteed to them as they can sense the peace they now have with God and Christ, they know Him and He knows them.

The second paragraph is saying Calvinist have righteousness and don't have sin nature anymore this is false
The third is saying they repent after they are saved but just before being sealed by the Spirit. This is absolute nonsense they still have a sin nature just like everyone else. the proof is in there sin.
MB

 

[Dave G]

REPENT.

HE cannot repent. He cannot be in a bad state and say what I am doing is wrong I need to change my ways.

The Bible teaches that men willfully refuse to repent, utilyan ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20, John 5:40 ).

Our unwillingness is so strong, that the "will not" literally hardens itself into a "cannot" that the Lord Jesus identifies in John 5:40, John 6:44 and John 6:65 among many others.

PAST TENSE. REPENT mean YOU change your mind. He cannot repent, God must REPENT.

I agree that to repent one must experience a change of mind about sinning against God and decide, going forward, not to.
Yes, a person can and does do such a thing, and God does not do the repenting for us.

But I confess to not understanding where you get the idea that God does the repenting for us, as believers, because I know of no so-called "Calvinist" that teaches this.
I think that perhaps you are misinformed, and have been, for a very long time now.

Those you label as "Calvinists" see the Bible teaching that men are unwilling, in their natural state, to approach God because of the hardness of their hearts.
Therefore, in order for a person to truly desire to repent and turn from their sins ( not in order to gain favor with God, but because they are genuinely concerned out of a love for Him and His ways and want to obey Him ), God must first change the heart.

" Ye must be born again."

 

[Dave G]

Instead God has to zap him first into a GOOD state of grace, SAVED, And he can ONLY LOOK back and say I was bad. HE HIMSELF cannot REPENT.

Contrast this with the popular teaching that a man can "zap himself" into a "good state of grace" by performing an act or set of actions, and I can understand why you are objecting to it.
I once believed this as well, and I can tell you that there are many preachers and teachers out there today that make salvation out to be a reward for good behavior, and repentance something that men must first "pony up to" in order to please God.

In fact, it is so popular, that people fill whole arenas and meeting halls by the thousands in order to hear it.
As for the second half of your quote ( which I've underlined ), may I direct your attention to my reply above?

"Total Inability" is not the teaching that we as men are unable, like a machine, to do that which we are not programmed to do.
Rather, it is the teaching that we as men are so filled with a firm resolve to go our own way, that we absolutely will not let go of our sins and turn to God in true repentance.

It is the teaching that God commands repentance, and we hate Him and His Son to the extent that we willfully reject His words in order to not only justify ourselves, but to hold on to our "right" to sin.

So, where you see the "Calvinist" teaching that God blocks men from repenting ( and I'm assuming this, as to me, your many objections seem to stem from a feeling of God keeping us from doing so ) , I clearly see the Bible teaching that man blocks himself by our love of sin and hatred of Him for "daring" to command our obedience.

 

[Dave G]

Instead they believe the OPPOSITE ORDER.

I disagree.
Speaking for myself, I believe the order that is given here:

" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:37-39 )

37) First, they were "pricked" in their hearts ( they believed his words )...clear evidence that they were born again ( born "of God" ), or they would have rejected the word of God as the rest of the Jews did ( John 8:43-47 ).
38) Peter tells the ones that did believe, to repent and be baptized...after which they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...same as Ephesians 1:13 lays out;
After believing, God then "seals" them when His Spirit comes in to indwell them.
39) The promise was given to those that received Peter's words, to their children, and...here's the qualifier...to "as many as the Lord our God shall call".

 

[Dave G]

Therefore let your sins be wiped away THEN you can repent.

Utilyan,

As I see it, you keep looking at salvation as something that can only be gained by meeting God's "requirements".
What that list is, and how we meet them, varies ( sometimes greatly ) from denomination to denomination...
but the concept remains the same;

We do something in order to get something from God.

Utilyan, that is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...
That is a god of our own making who works on a merit-based system of granting His favor to people who successfully "jump through a series of hoops" ( whether it's one, two or a whole list of them, it's all the same ) to please Him.

That is also the God who created the Law of Moses...
which could never save us eternally, but whose only purpose was to point us to the Saviour who could keep it all for us.

The stark reality of it is, is that God has mercy and compassion on whom He wills, not on whom we will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:13-24 ).
I'm sorry that you find this offensive, and I'm equally as sorry that you keep creating threads like this in ( what I see ) as an attempt to goad those who disagree with you into a debate which can only result in offenses on both sides...
Which are not profitable and edifying, my friend, but rather destructive and unprofitable.



Again and as always, may He bless you in your studies of His word, and may He grant you many good gifts;
Wisdom, patience and meekness of heart being first and foremost.

" that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 and what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," ( Ephesians 1:17-19 ).

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, unregenerate man is unwilling to come to Christ.


John 5:39-41
New King James Version
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men.

God makes us willing.

 

[Dave G]

That is also the God who created the Law of Moses...
which could never save us eternally, but whose only purpose was to point us to the Saviour who could keep it all for us.

@utilyan :

To clarify,
The God of all creation created the Law of Moses, the first covenant between Israel, God's chosen nation, and Himself;
Not to give men something to save themselves by, but to teach us as believers a lesson by...that we cannot obey Him perfectly and we cannot save ourselves by our own actions.
The terms of it were that He offered salvation in the earthly sense to all who would obey it, and earthly cursings and destruction to those that would not.

It was never fulfilled by men until His own Son came to fulfill it.

When people look at salvation as being achieved by a set of requirements, what they are unknowingly doing is imposing the characteristics of the Law of Moses upon God's covenant of grace, and making His gift into a reward.
It cannot and will not ever be subjected to the same terms as the Law, because that would allow us as men to purchase what is clearly described as a gift given by His grace and mercy...not by our own efforts at trying to please Him.

I'm sorry sir, but that is not how His grace functions... that is how works function.

This will be my final reply in this thread.

I had not intended to make another, but thought it best to clarify things for the reader, who may have been under the impression that I was presenting a God who promises salvation similar to the pattern of His Law...
I am not, and salvation from His wrath is quite different than anything that we as men could conceive of in our legalistic way of thinking, and it defies our every attempt at reducing it to a system of merit.

It is a gift, and cannot be earned or "accepted".
it can only be passively received by the person to whom it is given.
Those that have believed on His Son from the heart, have been given it.



May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Bible teaches that men willfully refuse to repent, utilyan ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20, John 5:40 ).

Our unwillingness is so strong, that the "will not" literally hardens itself into a "cannot" that the Lord Jesus identifies in John 5:40, John 6:44 and John 6:65 among many others.

I agree that to repent one must experience a change of mind about sinning against God and decide, going forward, not to.
Yes, a person can and does do such a thing, and God does not do the repenting for us.

But I confess to not understanding where you get the idea that God does the repenting for us, as believers, because I know of no so-called "Calvinist" that teaches this.
I think that perhaps you are misinformed, and have been, for a very long time now.

Those you label as "Calvinists" see the Bible teaching that men are unwilling, in their natural state, to approach God because of the hardness of their hearts.
Therefore, in order for a person to truly desire to repent and turn from their sins ( not in order to gain favor with God, but because they are genuinely concerned out of a love for Him and His ways and want to obey Him ), God must first change the heart.

" Ye must be born again."

So you are admitting the sinners do have a free will

 

[atpollard]

REPENT.

HE cannot repent. He cannot be in a bad state and say what I am doing is wrong I need to change my ways.

PAST TENSE. REPENT mean YOU change your mind. He cannot repent, God must REPENT.

Instead God has to zap him first into a GOOD state of grace, SAVED, And he can ONLY LOOK back and say I was bad. HE HIMSELF cannot REPENT.

He can't say sorry God for my evil heart, Only sorry God that I HAD an evil heart.

Incorrect.

Another strawman version of what Calvinism teaches.
Read the WCF or the London Confession or the Heidelberg Catechism and see what they say about repentance.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Incorrect.

Another strawman version of what Calvinism teaches.
Read the WCF or the London Confession or the Heidelberg Catechism and see what they say about repentance.

How about what the Bible actually says rather than some man made confessions that have more to do with human theology than the Word of God

Reformed soteriology is rather heretical

 

[atpollard]

So you are admitting the sinners do have a free will

Sinners have a free will that is enslaved to a fallen nature. They freely choose to do what they want, and what they want is to walk contrary to the law of God. That is why men cannot fulfill the two greatest commandments ... they choose not to with 100% accuracy. No one loves their enemies.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sinners have a free will that is enslaved to a fallen nature. They freely choose to do what they want, and what they want is to walk contrary to the law of God. That is why men cannot fulfill the two greatest commandments ... they choose not to with 100% accuracy. No one loves their enemies.

Wrong! What about the nuns and monks who do desire to serve and please the Lord even though wrongly. The point being that they don't hate the Lord nor are they against Him

 

[atpollard]

How about what the Bible actually says rather than some man made confessions that have more to do with human theology than the Word of God

The OP is about what those Confessions teach.
The OP did not claim that Scripture teaches men can never repent; if it had, then I would have responded with scripture to refute it. The OP makes false claims about what Calvinists believe, so sources of correct Calvinist Theology are the place to correct flawed claims about Calvinist Theology.

Once you are challenging what Calvinists actually believe, we can discuss whether scripture supports those beliefs or not. However there is no point using scripture to refute a strawman. We do not believe what the OP claims we believe.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The OP is about what those Confessions teach.
The OP did not claim that Scripture teaches men can never repent; if it had, then I would have responded with scripture to refute it. The OP makes false claims about what Calvinists believe, so sources of correct Calvinist Theology are the place to correct flawed claims about Calvinist Theology.

Once you are challenging what Calvinists actually believe, we can discuss whether scripture supports those beliefs or not. However there is no point using scripture to refute a strawman. We do not believe what the OP claims we believe.

As I have said the Calvinist teaching on soteriology is hersey

 

[atpollard]

Wrong! What about the nuns and monks who do desire to serve and please the Lord even though wrongly. The point being that they don't hate the Lord nor are they against Him

I have no evidence that all nuns and monks are “unsaved”.
I have no way to know if they “love the lord with all of their heart and soul and mind and strength” or if they fall into the “I never knew you” group.

I have never met an unsaved person that loved the person doing them harm, have you?

 

[atpollard]

As I have said the Calvinist teaching on soteriology is hersey

Irrelevant to the OP being a strawman of Calvinist teaching.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Irrelevant to the OP being a strawman of Calvinist teaching.

Just the ONE Bible verse destroys most of Calvinism. John 3.16