Another thing a Calvinist has never done.

[MB]

You say: "I've never claimed to be elect."

Consider these verses:

[Rom 8:33 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Col 3:12 KJV] 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Are you excluded because of your claim?

[Gal 3:28 KJV] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

None of these verses say you are elect. the reason is all this was originally addressed to Jews not Gentiles. Col 3:12 is telling us to emulate the elect not that we are the elect. not to mention I have met very few Calvinist who are Merciful, Kind, meek, and humble.
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As far as being excluded. I'm thankful that I'm not a Calvinist who make up there own doctrine ignoring the doctrine of Christ. None of the Calvinist here have ever proven even one of your false doctrines from scripture. Calvinist read into scripture in stead of reading scripture as it is.
1st Peter 1:2 is also addressed to Jews Peter was an apostle to the Jews not Gentiles
Paul taught in the synagogues where Gentiles are not welcomed. Paul was Jailed for bringing Gentiles in to the synagogue
Gal 3:28 Is saying that we are all equal Jews and Gentiles which does not make us elect
No where in scripture is it ever said Gentiles are elect. Calvinist keep grasping for proof yet there is none. Election for Gentiles is not true Because God never elected Gentiles.
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

None of these verses say you are elect. the reason is all this was originally addressed to Jews not Gentiles. Col 3:12 is telling us to emulate the elect not that we are the elect. not to mention I have met very few Calvinist who are Merciful, Kind, meek, and humble....MB

Do you consider yourself to be among the chosen?
[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[Jas 2:5 KJV] 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
[1Pe 2:4 KJV] 4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, ...
[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[Rev 17:14 KJV] 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[MB]

Do you consider yourself to be among the chosen?

Chosen for Salvation Yes. I do how ever this is not to be part of the elect. The elect are a separate people unto God. Gentiles have not always been eligible for Salvation. We were never elected to be a people as were the Jews.
It seems Calvinist believe them selves to be a replacement of the Jews. They are not. Election is not necessary for Salvation.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[Jas 2:5 KJV] 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
[1Pe 2:4 KJV] 4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, ...
[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[Rev 17:14 KJV] 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

There are two different choosings the first is the elect of God. The second is the choosing to save men from there sins.
Calvinist claim that the elect will always be saved which is not true. Judas was lost to Christ and the Pharisee's who did not believe in Christ but thought He was a fake are lost even though they are elect. There will be many elect Jews in Hell. Being chosen for Salvation is because of faith. This is man's faith not some special granted faith from God. There is no special faith in Christ. It is simply Man being convinced of Christ and convicted of sin. These two things bring faith from hearing the gospel. It all comes from the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
MB

 

[MB]

Do you consider yourself to be among the chosen?
[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[Jas 2:5 KJV] 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
[1Pe 2:4 KJV] 4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, ...
[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[Rev 17:14 KJV] 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

There is a huge difference between being Chosen for Salvation and being elect.
This is the election of the Jews.
Deu_7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu_14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Show me where scripture says Gentiles are elect. You show scripture but none say Gentiles are elect exactly.
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[Wesley Briggman]

I am not a Calvinist because he was an anti-Semite. That, however, does not lessen the truth of scripture that is commonly associated with his theology. Namely TULIP. I believe this acronym is Biblically sound.

Not being a Calvinist, I am not familiar with their convictions. You seem to be well informed on such matters.

I would appreciate you having one or more Calvinist confirm what you say they believe.

Your not a Jew yet you claim to be elect. It's called replacement theology and it is false.

You might want to reconsider your (mis)-understanding of replacement theology.

I believe replacement theology wrongly teaches that the Church, the body of Christ, has replaced the role of Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel.

 

[MB]

I am not a Calvinist because he was an anti-Semite. That, however, does not lessen the truth of scripture that is commonly associated with his theology. Namely TULIP. I believe this acronym is Biblically sound.

Not being a Calvinist, I am not familiar with their convictions. You seem to be well informed on such matters.

I would appreciate you having one or more Calvinist confirm what you say they believe.



You might want to reconsider your (mis)-understanding of replacement theology.

I believe replacement theology wrongly teaches that the Church, the body of Christ, has replaced the role of Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel
.

You'd have to be elect for those promises to be applied to you. The words elect and chosen are said to mean the same thing but they do not in scripture. Every time the word elect is used it is speaking about the children of Israel. Not Gentiles.

The doctrines of Grace are Calvinism. The tulip is not found in scripture. Example Total Depravity is the curse of the Jew because of there rejection of Christ.. Unconditional election is not unconditional. You need to be a Jew to be elect. Limited atonement does not exist Christ died for the sins of whole world.Irresistible Grace does not exist because Christ came to His own People and they resisted Christ. Perseverance of the saints is ridiculous. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and no one can pluck us out of the hand of God.
Call it what ever you feel like yet Calvinism will always be Calvinism regardless of the name you call it.Whether it be called Reformed, Augustinianism, or Calvinism it's still the same doctrine
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Example Total Depravity is the curse of the Jew because of there rejection of Christ.

Please provide scripture to support your claim.

 

[MB]

Please provide scripture to support your claim.

Total depravity is inability to hear and understand the gospel. Yet Salvation is sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it.Acts 28:28 When we use the word Gentiles we mean all those who are not Jews. If they all can hear implies they will understand other wise they could not receive Salvation which is sent to them

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This does not mean these Gentiles will be saved. It just means they can be if they believe. There are far more Gentile Christians in the world than Jewish Christians. Our Salvation was meant to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Because of there rejection of Christ.
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[MB]

The Jews have been rejecting God nearly since the beginning of there election.So where does this leave Irresistible grace. I say non existant.

1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa_10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
2Ki_17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
This verse is a curse.

Luk_7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

There certainly seems to be a lot of rejection of God don't you think?And this is not all of it.

Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

This verse is why the Jews could not hear or understand

This next verse is the curse of the Jews.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

You will notice this was foretold and the Jews did not understand
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

...Total Depravity is the curse of the Jew because of there rejection of Christ

Your position is: total depravity applies to the Jews due to their rejection of Christ as their Messiah.

Please provide scripture to support your claim.

Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

This verse is why the Jews could not hear or understand

You have not provided scripture to support your claim concerning the Jews being totally depraved.

While the term "total depravity" is not in the Bible, mankind in his natural state of being separated from God due to being spiritually dead and completely unable to revive himself is clearly taught in scripture. That condition is described as mankind being in a state of total depravity. I make no distinction, nor have I heard anyone but you make a distinction, between Jew and gentile.

 

[tyndale1946]

Well I've known quite a few brethren on here who claim Calvinism but as I also believe in the TULIP like Wesley but I also am not a Calvinist... But I can tell you in reference to these on the BB... Another thing a Calvinist has never done, none that I know of, is return to legalism!... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

Your position is: total depravity applies to the Jews due to their rejection of Christ as their Messiah.

You have not provided scripture to support your claim concerning the Jews being totally depraved.

While the term "total depravity" is not in the Bible, mankind in his natural state of being separated from God due to being spiritually dead and completely unable to revive himself is clearly taught in scripture. That condition is described as mankind being in a state of total depravity. I make no distinction, nor have I heard anyone but you make a distinction, between Jew and gentile.

Its not?... I think this will suffice... How DEAD does one have to be?... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Btw... If you're not DEAD, why would you need Christ?

 

[MB]

Your position is: total depravity applies to the Jews due to their rejection of Christ as their Messiah.

You have not provided scripture to support your claim concerning the Jews being totally depraved.

Well you already believe in total depravity. Do you believe this was added to the Jew? My argument is that Gentiles are not effected by this at all. You will ask why even though I've already shown you. This time I present the whole passage.


Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Act 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
Act 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Act 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our father
ct 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

This was paul speaking to the Jews. Not Gentiles.Then He said to them;

Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

If you read the whole thing you might understand
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Example Total Depravity is the curse of the Jew because of there rejection of Christ..

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

tyndale and I agree that the passages he quoted above are addressing the Gentiles and is more than sufficient to reveal their total depravity.

 

[MB]

tyndale and I agree that the passages he quoted above are addressing the Gentiles and is more than sufficient to reveal their total depravity.

Notice those passages do not say you were quickened before you believed.All men are in there sins until they are saved. When you are quickened you are saved.
Regeneration
REGENERA'TION, n.
1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.
2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.
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[Wesley Briggman]

Notice those passages do not say you were quickened before you believed.All men are in there sins until they are saved. When you are quickened you are saved.
Regeneration
REGENERA'TION, n.
1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.
2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.
MB

God does the quickening in spite of our total depravity.

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[MB]

God does the quickening in spite of our total depravity.

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I agree with the verse, Although we are not saved in order that we can believe. We are saved when our faith is found to be true .
MB

 

[MB]

Well I've known quite a few brethren on here who claim Calvinism but as I also believe in the TULIP like Wesley but I also am not a Calvinist... But I can tell you in reference to these on the BB... Another thing a Calvinist has never done, none that I know of, is return to legalism!... Brother Glen

What do you think Lord ship Salvation is. It is legalism.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Works do not prove you are saved. They do not keep you saved. Sure we can all do good works, Saved or not it is nothing special. Perseverance does not keep you saved. Salvation is so secure that you your self cannot be unsaved even if you wanted to be
MB

 

[Noah Hirsch]

believe that "repentance" is a "work", and therefore not a requirement for a sinner to get saved. This is plainly against the Teachings of Jesus and the Apostles

Orthodox Calvinism does not deny that repentance is a condition of salvation.

“Repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner, out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, doth, with grief and hatred of his sin, turn from it unto God, with full purpose of, and endeavour after, new obedience.” (The Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 86)

“Repentance unto life is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, and upon the apprehension of God's mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, he so grieves for and hates his sins, as that he turns from them all to God, purposing and endeavoring constantly to walk with him in all the ways of new obedience.” (The Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 76)

“Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assents to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receives and rests upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.” (The Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 72)

“Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ, yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XV, paragraph III)

Orthodox Calvinism acknowledges the necessity of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Those who deny the necessity of faith or repentance are not orthodox Calvinists, but rather have been condemned by orthodox Calvinists and all orthodox Christians as heretics.

 

[utilyan]

If you think about it, Even the OLD TESTAMENT LAW, serves absolutely no purpose.

The LAW was suppose to let us know we can't DO IT we need a Savior we need Jesus.

But in Calvinism, You could not even possibly understand the law, Unless you were saved first.


Galatians 3
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.