Anyone heard this?

[bapmom]

Alright Elnora,

I guess I assumed too much, Im sorry.

I had no idea that at this board "liberal" was an accusation.

From the posts I see spread all over in almost every thread, the more "liberal" point of view seems to be the one most accepted here at the "BaptistBoard".

This is coming from a new member, but not one who is unfamiliar with your board. Ive been here before many times.

So, just so you understand, I never realized that liberal was a "cuss" word here. Many of you sound like liberals in many different areas.

Also, when I used the term here I was only meaning it as "a broader, less strict standard".....you know, not referring to any doctrines.

 

[bapmom]

Eric B.

Thank you for your post on the last page.

I tried, in my post you referred to, to point out that yes, I was pointing out extremes. I also tried to point out that there are variations of all those parts. Yes, rap is also the words, but like I said in the beginning of that post, we weren't dealing with lyrics first, but the music or tune of the song only. So without the words, rap is all rhythm. But thats really an aside.

I was trying to say that each individual song must be judged. Sure there are some CCM that are balanced. There are modern written songs that are quite nice. The old hymns have often been mutilated by people going to an extreme and playing them at such a heartbreakingly slow rate that you think you are going to die. Then theres the churches that play them so fast you can't get all the words in! lol

Like I said, there's a balance to all we do.

Thats really all I was saying. I DO believe that theres no place in the Christian's life for rap, its a completely out-of-balance style. However, we were asked for our opinions, and I thought it would be alright to give mine.

Why is there no room in here for us who believe this way?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Ed, my question was to Elnora.

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Just letting you all know that I've been asked to monitor the posts here. Some very unchristian attitudes showing here and we will stop that in its tracks.

Thank you Brother Administrator Dr. Bob.

Someone needs to find out if men reproach women on Baptist Board (BB) then they will have to answer to men.

 

[bapmom]

Brother Ed Edwards,

I don't think it has to do with how big or small God is in regards to the type of music He considers right. I mean, why can't we apply God's principles to music just as we do to everything else? Why do we have to assume that ALL types are alright? What makes you think that would be how God is?

Doesn't God have certain types of things He condemns in other areas as well?

 

[Eric B]

Thats really all I was saying. I DO believe that theres no place in the Christian's life for rap, its a completely out-of-balance style. However, we were asked for our opinions, and I thought it would be alright to give mine.

Why is there no room in here for us who believe this way?

This is basically the dispute I was having on the other thread (which Aaron linked to, above) last week.
It often doesn't SOUND like "just an opinion", but rather a harsh judgment. Here is your original post:

And Rachel, yes, ALL rap music is bad. It is a form of music which comes straight from heathenism. Im sad, really sad, if you don't agree.

When one gives an "opinion" like that, the other side will be offended, and react, and not even just the other side, but even those neutral to it who think that is too harsh; hence Rachel. A couple of people on the other thread couldn;t for the life of them understand why their comments would be so offensive. But the fact that someone who doesn't even care for rap would be so shocked ought to tell you something! (How do you think those who like the style will feel, then?)
And then, you have people like Aaron, who unashamedly admit that their position is a universal (what they think Biblical) judgment, and not an opinion. So when someone makes a post like yours, we will naturally think that you hold his type of view.

As for "liberal", that is something that is relative. Anything less conservative can be called "liberal" compared to a more conservative view. Rachel's position would be basically center, and it is those who condemn rap that are more conservative, and from the "right", the center lies to the "left".

 

[bapmom]

Well Eric,

I can understand your point.

I just get real sick of every time we have an opinion, or hold a view which we believe is Biblical, we are called names......like legalistic for instance.....one person actually called it a mean-spirited diatribe.....we get told we are acting unChristian but anything said to us is given a complete pass.

My goodness, in another thread all I said was that if we are doing wrong when we die we might not get that good of a reception from God, and I was immediately accused of only "calling myself a Christian."

Ive tried not to make any comments like that in here. When I said liberal I was trying to refer to "more liberal" meaning more to the left of the viewpoint. I tried to state it that way.

I do have strong feelings in this area....and if I believe the viewpoint than its because I believe its a Biblical view. I mean, Im trying to believe what the Bible is teaching....both in word and in principle. Thats all.

I don't really think what I said about rap is opinion, I believe its what is correct according to Biblical principles.

Also, the whole thing about heathenism....rap, as I remember learning it, came from African tribal music and chants that were used in the tribal worship system....a far cry from someone's claim that a bunch of kids in the inner city made it up.

Can you see how you all look to me, now, too? Or is it just everyone else's point of view that is accepted here?

 

[Daniel]

Repost of my personal story involving Christian rap:

Having been the teacher of a student gifted in writing and performing Christian rap, I quickly learned to shut my mouth about it and watch in wonder and praise as God mightily used Brian amongst our Christian school students. This genuine young man who passionately loves the Lord for delivering him out of an awful lifestyle has the gift for reaching into our students' hearts with his lyrics and communication style.

Do I personally like Christian rap? No. I've been very clear on that in this forum. I have just learned to get my judgmental nose out of the air and am learning to let God use the weak things of this earth (such as my student) to confound the mighty.

Thank God Brian does not read the stuff posted here. He has been asked to represent abstinence agencies nationwide. He is also being tapped by the agency against violence for his powerful words dealing with the topics of abuse and violence against the innocent.

But, then again, nobody ever told the bumblebee he's not supposed to be able to fly!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Gayla]

I watched it all the way through. Didn't like it at all.
I have never heard the other song it is based on/taken from/spoofing (choose what you refer).

Hubby walked by while it was playing and said it sounded like the other song. I don't remember the name or group.

I didn't like the way my three year old started 'bopping', different kind of music than we listen to, and a different kind of 'bopping' than she usually does.

 

[Eric B]

Also, the whole thing about heathenism....rap, as I remember learning it, came from African tribal music and chants that were used in the tribal worship system....a far cry from someone's claim that a bunch of kids in the inner city made it up.

This whole "that style comes from African voodoo" claim is just flippantly thrown around and repeated, and people who teach it do not even know what they're talking about. (Then people wonder why "race" is brought into it). It is only certain elements of rap and black music that are traceable to Africa. The tribal chants sounded nothing like either "Baby Got Back" or "Baby Got Book".
What you are thinking about in rap, that came directly from Africa, are 1) the responsiveness, you know, where the performer addresses the audience, and the audience answers, as is done also at most pop concerts. (e.g. "ev'rybody say "yeah"; 'yeah', etc).
What is wrong with this? It's basically the same exact thig as a pastor saying "And let everyone say 'amen'!" (and this may have come from the black Church, and ultimately from the same place!) It is just a social interaction device that a culture that happened to be non-Christian ("heathen") used. If that makes the practice in itself "heathen", then it is the people who are being implicated, and not their religion, which may or may not have necesarily had anything to do with it, or at least was separable from it.

And then, there's 2) the "backbeat", which modern rap got from the disco/funk/R&B records it rhymed over, and now samples from. But this too in its modern form I have never heard in any voodoo drumming. It is the syncopation and the fact that it otherwise differs from "the standard" of Western music that gets all of these things lumped together like that. (Like David Cloud even calling "charismatic" music "jazz"!) And then, people get it all mixed up (e.g. thinking the whole style was lifted directly out of Africa) and just parrot it in an argument against this style they do not like, and don't want brought into their church. (Just like "rock beats had negative effects on mice in labs", and when you examine the study, it was not a rock beat, but random drum beats. Yet it get picked up by the CCM crtics, and passed around as some positive proof the music is no good, in addition to the spiritual claim just addressed. There go two spokes of the cycle. From this, we can just project the third: that it is offensive to God).

 

[bapmom]

"It is only certain elements of rap and black music that are traceable to Africa."

Yes? and how is that NOT coming from heathenism?

Certain elements are still a part of it....and obviously the tribal chants don't sound like "Baby Got Book". Of course not! I'd rather not listen to any music that has ANY elements in it that come from spirit worship or such.

BTW, I didn't bring up any race at all and I don't intend to. White folk can be and are just as "heathenish" as black folk.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Someone needs to find out if men reproach women on Baptist Board (BB) then they will have to answer to men.

Huh? Go play Knight-In-Shining-Armour somewhere else. Okay? Okay. Bye.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elnora:
It is extra biblical man made rules that one Christian tries to impose on another through manipulation or a false sense of guilt.

...

Pushing those standards on others is legalism.

If anyone is guilty of manipulation and imposition, the CCM crowd takes the cake. From the beginning, they have horned in on traditional worshippers forcing their preferences and beating down any who would object. Traditional worshippers are maligned as manipulative, judgmental, legalistic, man-centered, pharisaical, and the list goes on.

So let me ask you a question. Is it God's will that the church use the style of music that Elnora prefers in Christian worship? </font>[/QUOTE]Since Ed's damsel-in-distress is no longer posting, I'll cut to the chase. Generally speaking, those who argue for "Traditional" music in the church do so on the basis of a genuine conscience toward rock music, which is 99% of CCM. Generally speaking, those who argue for CCM in the church do so on the basis that God doesn't care about musical styles in the church, and that it's just a matter of personal preference.

A Christian is concerned with God's will, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. If one is going to trample the consciences of worhippers, it can't be on the basis of self -will and personal preference, it must be on the basis of God's will.

This, in effect unravels the whole CCM argument about legalism and tradition and so on. If it is God's will that rock music be played in church, then God is concerned with musical styles. If it isn't God's will, then why argue for it?

 

[jshurley04]

I sure am glad that we white american baptists from upper low income up to high income lifestyles are able to determine what is "God honoring" music and what is not. I'm so glad that we are narrow minded enough to straighten out the musical wrongs of others so that in heaven we can have our way and teach the centuries past what real "God honoring" music is. I'm glad that we have the God given right to destroy other cultures and their music and turn them into little american baptists singing the "right" kind of music.

I sometimes wonder how ignorant we can be.

 

[jshurley04]

I'm glad that the tune used for Amazing Grace was never an English bar tune set to God Honoring words. Wow, if that were true then we could never sing that song again!

 

[Aaron]

*sigh*

It's the kindergarten class again.

 

[Rachel]

I'm truly amazed at some of the posts I've seen here. Shocked and amazed. Some of this might have been said before but I feel it important to say again.

A song was posted here. The song was a parody made to cause people to smile at both the stupidity of the original song and to bring a smile to the faces of Christians. The group who put out the song is starting a ministry in Cleveland, Ohio. This is part of the way in which they are "breaking into" the community. A ministry in this area that is open, attractive, and doesn't reek of legalism will be a breath of fresh air. Here is a link to their site: http://www.momentumchurch.com/

The song was referred to by some as evil right from the start because the style is rap. I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, but obviously some people don't get it. A musical style in and of itself does not make a song bad. If that were the case, ALL music is evil. Lucifer was the chief musician in heaven. In fact, some people DO say that this makes all music evil, and is cause to use no intruments. That's rather silly, as God created Lucifer with a purpose, and until his fall his music was a blessing to the heavens. It is the height of insanity to sit around and try to decide whether a 2/4 beat is sinful, or a certain note, or exactly when a tempo goes from pleasing God with it's timing to making the demons rejoice. Try to sit back and look at it from that perspective and realize how plain dumb it is to try to pick a genre of music out from the rest and declare it wicked! If this were the case, it wouldn't have been too long ago that many of the hymns in your songbooks at church would also have been considered wrong. Why do you sing them? Wrong doesn't become right with age simply because it's older. If people danced on bar tables to the tune of Amazing Grace a number of years ago, what makes it ok to sing now?

Please don't have double standards, and if you insist on doing so be honest about them. Even better, realize that they aren't holy and righteous, but that they are your own personal preferences and not from the mouth of our Lord.

When people refer to the song as "straight from the belly of hell"...there is a problem. Let's think about our words before we use them. Do you truly believe this is an honest thought? Hell isn't a joke, it's a real place and somehow I doubt that the people in it are dreaming and scheming of turning a bad song into one that is not and making it amusing to boot, and then giving it to a Christian ministry who will use it to help draw more people in to hear about Christ. Not only is that a dishonest thing to say, it is a wicked thing to say about a Christian ministry.

It IS judgmental, wrong, legalistic, and certainly not just a a valid "opinion" to make statements saying that all rap music is wrong, that this ministry's song is from the belly of hell, and then to further state that one is justified in saying such. Say you don't like the song, but please don't be dishonest about the intention of the song, or claim to have extra-biblical authority and knowledge on what style, tempo, and musical instruments God believes are right or wrong. That IS part of what legalism entails.

I think that's all there is left to be said about this topic. It was not meant to offend, but I do think it was a good conversation in that it may cause people to think and possibly realize that there are many things in this world that are wrong, far too many for us to have to sit and pick out every small excuse in existance in order to be able to seek out and find evil. You don't have to look that hard. There are murders, rapes, false doctrines, false religions, wolves in sheep's clothing, pornography, and all manner of vile sin if that's what you're looking for. You don't need a magnifying glass to find it. In light of all that abounds in this world I seriously doubt that finding hell and evil in a Christian ministry's outreach is desirable or even slightly pleasing to God.

I'm done with this subject. I hope the posters here think about what they have said and actually read other peopls posts.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Aaron:
A Christian is concerned with God's will, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. If one is going to trample the consciences of worhippers, it can't be on the basis of self -will and personal preference, it must be on the basis of God's will.

And God's will = "traditional music"? I love Fanny Crosby songs but that's not what Jesus and the disciples sang whille sitting around the campfire on the shores of the Sea of Galilee. Let's quit arguing and just use the tunes that Jesus used. Then we would know that we were honoring God.

This, in effect unravels the whole CCM argument about legalism and tradition and so on. If it is God's will that rock music be played in church, then God is concerned with musical styles. If it isn't God's will, then why argue for it?

First, if God is concerned with musical styles then could you show me what He says about musical styles? Which styles of music should I sing, and why? Which should I avoid, and why? What do the scriptures say?

Second, no one that I know of is arguing that you ought to have rock music at your church. The argument is against those who are critical of my church because our music sounds different than the music at their church.

 

[Daniel]

Stand by, whatever, for the kindergarten teacher...

 

[Eric B]

"It is only certain elements of rap and black music that are traceable to Africa."

Yes? and how is that NOT coming from heathenism?

Certain elements are still a part of it....and obviously the tribal chants don't sound like "Baby Got Book". Of course not! I'd rather not listen to any music that has ANY elements in it that come from spirit worship or such.

BTW, I didn't bring up any race at all and I don't intend to. White folk can be and are just as "heathenish" as black folk.

I gave the two elements of rap that came from Africa. How are they indelibly "heathen"? Are they heathen just because they are from Africa? (even though I showed that they can be separated from the pagan worship, and notice I said in the quote "Africa", and not "African religion").

Likewise, classical music is not purely from the Bible. Biblical music was probably closer to African (since the two regions are located right next to teach together, and the people did cross paths often). So there are also elements of classical and traditional that stem from heathen Europe. Just think of what the "fiddling" Nero did as Rome burned was closer to. (that is clearly closer a classical type intrument). Likewise, the entire philosophy that music must have a certain rhythm, as not to be "too pleasing" or an overestimation of music's effects on men comes from Platonism, and spread through neoplatonism and gnosticism; two sources of much of the paganism that infiltrated and corrupted the church. (which right there shows you that what the "old time Church" said and did wasn't always right and pure).
All of this is what makes it so ironic to be favoring one continent's styles over another's, based on the concept of "heathen elements". ALL the people were heathen, and God's true spiritual nation, while originally springing from Israel, was never bound to any one culture. This is why race inevitably enters it. Because then it is like only one non-Christian culture is assumed to be "heathen", while another non-Christian culture somehow winds up being viewed as identified, or at least compatible with "sacred" culture.

 

[Thankful]

Since Ed's damsel-in-distress is no longer posting, I'll cut to the chase. Generally speaking, those who argue for "Traditional" music in the church do so on the basis of a genuine conscience toward rock music, which is 99% of CCM. Generally speaking, those who argue for CCM in the church do so on the basis that God doesn't care about musical styles in the church, and that it's just a matter of personal preference.

I really don't know if you are trying to tell me what I think about music or what I should think about music, but I am not arguing for or against any kind of music.

You think I quit posting because I was in "distress". You really do have a lot to learn about women and people and maybe music, too.

I really don't like to make posts personal, but apparently you do.