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- Thread starter Rachel
- Start date
My word Elnora! Where are you getting this?!
YOU are the one who says you like this sort of music.....that is a more liberal point of view.
I havent changed the subject, I was merely trying to illustrate my point!
I haven't made ANY accusations towards you, AT ALL. And YES, now Im closer to YELLING!
You seem to have a huge problem with me, and Im not sure why! I haven't accused you of anything! I was merely stating what I thought was your real position!
Look, having "lower" music standards is a part of modern-day liberalism, in its broadest sense. I don't know anything about your doctrinal beliefs, but the modern-day trend towards standards is to be more "liberal". That includes the whole "Christian Contemporary music" thing, and the more lax view of whether music can be made right simply by changing its lyrics.
And no, the rest is not just to sidetrack you! Havent you had a conversation in which people give you multiple examples in order to fully illustrate their point?
I really do not understand why you insist on being offended.
If Ive misread you, then Im sorry, but I really do think that you and I have simply gotten off on the wrong foot and we need to start over.
I meant no offense, but you also seem to just TAKE offense at everything I say! Even when its an inocuous remark!
I really wish we could be friends, but it is hard when you are so suspicious of every comment I make. Disagreeing with you on a point is not an accusation, nor is it showing any sort of unrighteous judgemental attitude.
YOU are the one who says you like this sort of music.....that is a more liberal point of view.
I havent changed the subject, I was merely trying to illustrate my point!
I haven't made ANY accusations towards you, AT ALL. And YES, now Im closer to YELLING!
You seem to have a huge problem with me, and Im not sure why! I haven't accused you of anything! I was merely stating what I thought was your real position!
Look, having "lower" music standards is a part of modern-day liberalism, in its broadest sense. I don't know anything about your doctrinal beliefs, but the modern-day trend towards standards is to be more "liberal". That includes the whole "Christian Contemporary music" thing, and the more lax view of whether music can be made right simply by changing its lyrics.
And no, the rest is not just to sidetrack you! Havent you had a conversation in which people give you multiple examples in order to fully illustrate their point?
I really do not understand why you insist on being offended.
If Ive misread you, then Im sorry, but I really do think that you and I have simply gotten off on the wrong foot and we need to start over.
I meant no offense, but you also seem to just TAKE offense at everything I say! Even when its an inocuous remark!
I really wish we could be friends, but it is hard when you are so suspicious of every comment I make. Disagreeing with you on a point is not an accusation, nor is it showing any sort of unrighteous judgemental attitude.
WOW! Did this take off!
The problem here, is, you're ignoring the STANDARD that we are to follow. People talk a lot about "standards", but in practice, it is "premodern Christian culture" is that has been set up as the standard that all others are judged by. Elnora answerd this well:
[or past Western civilization; past "christian" culture, or whatever else. Sin was hidden more in the pre-60's, pre electronic media age past, not less existant. It was also oriented a bit differently. Just ask any black or Jew how "not as cruel" society was back then. And that includes your "church culture". Once again, this is like asking "There are pagan idol worshipping cultures, would you say they are just as good as the Nation of Israel culture? Probably not". This is the way they thought, and what good did it do them, when they ended up crucifying the Messiah, and suffered God's wrath?
NO culture is "good". All are fallen, and God calls people OUT of them, whatever style of music it uses!
That is what has fired me up in this issue. Much of the old Church music is NOT balanced, at all. It is based on an unbiblical means of trying to control "the flesh", or man's devising, and not really of "the spirit" at all! Much of CCM has the balance, but people reject it because it may fall under the category of what is called "rock", or have something in common with jazz.
Picking up on this point:
Trying to control the "the flesh" with some unbiblical rules is just as much "the flesh" as totally indulging. Just look at Paul's testimony in Colossians, Philippians, and elsewhere!
http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html
Rachel? I think this is me you were answering.
The problem here, is, you're ignoring the STANDARD that we are to follow. People talk a lot about "standards", but in practice, it is "premodern Christian culture" is that has been set up as the standard that all others are judged by. Elnora answerd this well:
[or past Western civilization; past "christian" culture, or whatever else. Sin was hidden more in the pre-60's, pre electronic media age past, not less existant. It was also oriented a bit differently. Just ask any black or Jew how "not as cruel" society was back then. And that includes your "church culture". Once again, this is like asking "There are pagan idol worshipping cultures, would you say they are just as good as the Nation of Israel culture? Probably not". This is the way they thought, and what good did it do them, when they ended up crucifying the Messiah, and suffered God's wrath?
NO culture is "good". All are fallen, and God calls people OUT of them, whatever style of music it uses!
Actually, rap is not "ALL rhythm". It is WORDS that rhyme to the rhythm, and you may claim that the rhythm dominates, or whatever, but clearly, it would not be rap without the words. Even the other forms criticized for "rhythm" still do usually have a lot of melody and harmony. People focus on a few extreme styles, to paint the whole genre with a single brush stroke.
So what is this rightly "balanced", but "led by the spirit" style then? The old hymns? Perhaps many of these, the way they are played in conservative, old time Churches, rather than being the "balance", are simply the third counterpart to the other two extremes you mentioned. All "melody", with rhythm and harmony deliberately minimized, somethies almost to nothing, for fear that those two things lead to too much "pleasure ("the flesh"). Perhaps this is what led people to rebel and go to the opposite extreme in the first place.
That is what has fired me up in this issue. Much of the old Church music is NOT balanced, at all. It is based on an unbiblical means of trying to control "the flesh", or man's devising, and not really of "the spirit" at all! Much of CCM has the balance, but people reject it because it may fall under the category of what is called "rock", or have something in common with jazz.
But the claim that all of the styles that are being condemned crosses the line and "appeals to the flesh" to the sense that is it comparable to drinking and cursing, and being "unpleasing" to God, has not been proven. It is argued from taking the "testimonials" of some, and then projecting it onto everyone else, whether we have experienced it or not.
Picking up on this point:
No, it is you (Aaron) who doesn't know what "spirit" and "flesh" are. In four years, you have never been able to prove what they are to any of us who have debated with you. Once again, we only go around the cycle. (and welcome to The Cycle, bapmom!)
Trying to control the "the flesh" with some unbiblical rules is just as much "the flesh" as totally indulging. Just look at Paul's testimony in Colossians, Philippians, and elsewhere!
People who take issues like this (where they are basically denouncing their bretheren as doing something "offensive to God", whether they force or "push" them or not) ALWAYS omit that last definition of "legalism"!
http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html
If anyone is guilty of manipulation and imposition, the CCM crowd takes the cake. From the beginning, they have horned in on traditional worshippers forcing their preferences and beating down any who would object. Traditional worshippers are maligned as manipulative, judgmental, legalistic, man-centered, pharisaical, and the list goes on.
So let me ask you a question. Is it God's will that the church use the style of music that Elnora prefers in Christian worship?
Yes, both have been guilty of the same thing, to some extent. (No, you cannot flip it over and ignore the guilt manipulation and forcing the traditionalists have done, using their "seniority" to boot!)
As I say on my page:
The Biblical way to resolve this would have been to all sit down and discuss it prayerfully as brethren, but the problem was that those favoring the old ways were usually totally unreasonable, and did not even believe in discussing or debating, so actually, the brunt of the blame for this discord would fall more on the traditionalists! If leaders and others on the conservative side were supposedly more mature, and truly God's appointed leaders, and knew scripture so well, then they should have been the ones to have handled this scripturally from the beginning! Instead, they allowed emotion to take completely over, thus setting the stage for one of the very things they criticize CCM fans for— choosing music based on emotion and feelings! This is what set the tone of this debate. And once the youngsters went out and started their own churches, the traditionalists should have had no problem, as they would not have to hear what was sung in those churches. But instead, they continued to denounce the entire contemporary Church just for using the styles, period (whether people were trying to bring it into their congregations or not).
(At press time, your link to the other thread is being answerd, as well).
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Your God is too small, if you limit Him
to one and only one music type.
What does CCM mean?
I guess it means Corny Country Music
I'm agin' it. But if God can use it,
i ain't fightin' it.
Bapmom: //My word Elnora! Where are you getting this?!
YOU are the one who says you like this sort of music.....that is a more liberal point of view.
I havent changed the subject, I was merely trying to illustrate my point!
I haven't made ANY accusations towards you, AT ALL. //
your post introduction is self-contradictory.
I know where i come from, it is a put-down to
call some one 'liberal'. In fact, 'liberal' is a curse
word. You have accused Sister Elnora of it
Aaron: "Is it God's will that the church use the style of music that Elnora prefers in Christian worship?"
I've read this whole thread and really don't
know what music Sister Elnora prefers.
I prefer Southern Quartet Gospel. But
Negro Spiritual and classic Broms/Martin-Luther
stuff like :"A Mighty Fortress is our God!"
is really good.
to one and only one music type.
What does CCM mean?
I guess it means Corny Country Music
I'm agin' it. But if God can use it,
i ain't fightin' it.
Bapmom: //My word Elnora! Where are you getting this?!
YOU are the one who says you like this sort of music.....that is a more liberal point of view.
I havent changed the subject, I was merely trying to illustrate my point!
I haven't made ANY accusations towards you, AT ALL. //
your post introduction is self-contradictory.
I know where i come from, it is a put-down to
call some one 'liberal'. In fact, 'liberal' is a curse
word. You have accused Sister Elnora of it
Aaron: "Is it God's will that the church use the style of music that Elnora prefers in Christian worship?"
I've read this whole thread and really don't
know what music Sister Elnora prefers.
I prefer Southern Quartet Gospel. But
Negro Spiritual and classic Broms/Martin-Luther
stuff like :"A Mighty Fortress is our God!"
is really good.
Where did anyone in this thread say that they prefer the music in the opening post of this thread in Christian worship?
You are really jumping to conclusions. I liked the music, but I am one of the most traditional Church musicians You will find. I am the church organist. I play traditional hymns. I have also played Bach and other classical music. I prefer the hymns in the Baptist Hymnal which have all been reviewed by a committee to be sure of their true scriptural basis.
Now, I can enjoy the services that are led by the praise and worship team. I can worship my God in both kind of services.
I really think that one should be careful about grouping anyone who disagrees with them into a "liberal" group.
Wow! Since trying to repost I see you all are having a heyday. I go back and now Aaron says, quoting me, that this is typical of the CCM whatever crowd horning in on traditional Christian music.
babpmom say I said I like rap therefore liberal when I said way back that I PERSONALLY DON'T!!
Do you all talk just to hear yourselves? Because you certainly have not paid attention to a thing I said. Now you are ready to get mad and START YELLING!!!
You have done that from the start, obviously with such lack of listening skills, it is a waste of time to try to rationally discuss this.
I am done on this one, bapmom I hold no ill will toward you nor you El_Guero or anyone else here.
I do, in parting this thread beg you, when you can calm down re-read this thread. Then maybe you can understand what I was saying.
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ rest on you all. God bless.
babpmom say I said I like rap therefore liberal when I said way back that I PERSONALLY DON'T!!
Do you all talk just to hear yourselves? Because you certainly have not paid attention to a thing I said. Now you are ready to get mad and START YELLING!!!
You have done that from the start, obviously with such lack of listening skills, it is a waste of time to try to rationally discuss this.
I am done on this one, bapmom I hold no ill will toward you nor you El_Guero or anyone else here.
I do, in parting this thread beg you, when you can calm down re-read this thread. Then maybe you can understand what I was saying.
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ rest on you all. God bless.
