Anything good from alcohol?

[Diggin in da Word]

Reasons Paul could not have been telling Timothy to drink Alcohol.

Timothy was a church leader.

Proverbs 31:4 Gives a command that kings and princes were not to drink alcoholic wine as it would cause them to forget the law and pervert their judgment.

Church leaders should have clear minds. Paul told Timothy in the 1st chapter to charge some that they teach no other doctrine.

Timothy needed to have a clear head so he could tell when error was being taught.

In 5:22 Timothy was told to lay hands suddenly on no man. He was instructing him to be discerning of those who would seek ordination. Not to ordain them into the ministry without knowing they stood for the Gospel.

How foolish it would be for Paul to tell Timothy that he needed to be able to discern error and false doctrines and then turn around in verse 23 and tell him to drink that beverage that causes one to forget the law and distorts judgment.

Paul could not have told Timothy to drink alcohol.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

in verse 22, Paul told Timothy to keep himself pure. If he had told him to drink alcohol Timothy would not have been pure.

He did not say drink water and wine, but to lay off water completely.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Notice Paul did not say water exclusively as many versions say, He said drink no longer water.

He could have caused Timothy to become a drunkard prescribing alcohol.

verse 24 shows that alcohol could not have been prescribed. Paul told Timothy all sins would be revealed at the judgment seat. Wine causes one to do things they would not otherwise do.

Drunkenness does not just happen. Drunkenness begins from the very first sip of alcohol. From the very first sip, the alcohol begins to have an effect, although unnoticed on the human body. Each subsequent drink adds to that continuous stage of drunkenness.

 

[Brother Bob]

Maybe I am missing something but could you explain a small verse found in 1 Timothy 5:23, "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." How does this verse line up with what you believe? Of course it doesn't ever have to, but you must line up with what it teaches.

No longer drink water exclusively tells us that they had never drink wine before that day and I wonder why if ever one was drinking wine? Also, the wine for the stomach sake I understand to be non-acoholic.

 

[Brother Bob]

Please tell me I'm not going crazy!!

Don't know about the crazy part. , but I add to them quite often.

 

[Brother Bob]

To quench your allegations I have got news for you. I have drank wine and have never been drunk or ever gotten a buzz off of it. I have great control because personally I do not like the stuff and because my parents were grape farmers and saw how wine was made. As kids we could not understand how anyone would like it. The last time I drank any wine was when I was 15 (38 years ago). However, I have never been told not to drink wine, but I have also noticed that the areas of the U.S. where they preach against wine the most are also the same areas where I have seen more wine in the homes of Baptists and the teen pregnancy is the highest in the US. Don’t you have to ask yourself the question, “Why?” Apparently their preaching is of little value. Those are also the same areas where the most numbers of people go to Baptist churches thqan anywhere else in the U.S. Can you explain why?

What areas are you talking about and you got any studies to that fact or are you just making it up as you go? You never, never got a buzz from drinking the wine, your mind had never been altered or in a relaxed feeling?

Could you explain 1 Timothy 5:23, “No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.”

Can you give me one Scripture where it says it was acoholic wine?

So as I asked before could you give me a clear explanation of Paul’s command to Timothy in 1Timothy 5:23? I await your clear explanation.

Why did they never drink wine before that day and can you supply Scripture that the wine Paul told him to drink was acoholic. I think it has been pretty well established that there was both fermented and unfermented wine in those days.

 

[HankD]

It's not the alcohol in and of itself, it's the intent of the heart that makes it right or wrong.

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Why does a person use alcohol? As a medicine? As a supplement to a meal? As a means of getting into a forgetful stupor? To alter the consciousness?

Some Christians alter their consciousness and sooth their mental anguish with perscription drugs that are for the most part acceptable. They can be far more powerful than alcohol. What's the difference (Not that sedative drugs (controlled by a doctor) are wrong for the Christian, but what's the difference)?

There is indeed a good and scriptural reason to avoid alcohol...

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

On the other hand some Baptists (Primitive) are offended by our Welch's Grape Juice for communion and will insist on real wine.

My advice FWIW - It's probably best to abstain given the social structure of the abuse of all things that we live in. This I do for reason of the Scripture above.

keep the standard of your local Church and if you consume, as a scriptural minimum, stay sober and don't flaunt your liberty.

My opinion, of course.


HankD​

 

[sandrocksam]

Rms 14:21

Good point, if others perceive it as evil then to them it is evil. We should always consider others when it comes to our witness.

 

[gb93433]

No longer drink water exclusively tells us that they had never drink wine before that day and I wonder why if ever one was drinking wine? Also, the wine for the stomach sake I understand to be non-acoholic.

The word used in 1 Timothy for wine is oinw which stems from oinos which is found in

Matt 9:17
Matt 27:34
Mark 2:22
Mark 15:23
Luke 1:15
Luke 5:37, 38
Luke 7:33
Luke 10:34
John 2:3
John 2:9, 10
John 4:46
Roma 14:21
Ephe 5:18
1Tim 3:8
1Tim 5:23
Titu 2:3
Reve 6:6
Reve 14:8
Reve 14:10
Reve 16:19
Reve 17:2
Reve 18:3
Reve 18:13
Reve 19:15

I just don't see any support for your view from the context or the typical use of the word in those days.

 

[Hope of Glory]

No longer drink water exclusively tells us that they had never drink wine before that day and I wonder why if ever one was drinking wine? Also, the wine for the stomach sake I understand to be non-acoholic.

Or, perhaps, they were like many here who see the dangers of alcohol, so chose not to partake (one of the requirements of an overseer is to abstain completely), but Paul is telling him to forego that for medical reasons.

Nah. That's the simplest and most sensible reason. Can't be that.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Paul did not say no longer drink water exclusively, he said no longer drink water. That means he told Timothy to abstain completely from drinking water.

 

[gb93433]

What areas are you talking about and you got any studies to that fact or are you just making it up as you go? You never, never got a buzz from drinking the wine, your mind had never been altered or in a relaxed feeling?

Realize that my parents were grape farmers. On every side of our farm were grapes. I am sure if I was a bit relaxed I would have known it, as well as my parents would have known. I have never had any desire to just sit there and drink wine. As a kid I was more curious about how it tasted than anything else. It was my parents who gave it to me. Most of the time when we ever drank wine was when relatives came for a visit. For us seeing wine was much like seeing water. It was always around. We seldom ever drank wine. My parents seldom drank it. In almost every case we chose milk and Kool Aid. Having wine around was no big deal. We seldom ever talked about it. We talked a lot more about our favorite flavor of Kool Aid or what we would rather have for lunch. When I entered high school and heard students talk about how great it was it seemed rather foolish to me. I saw them as fools and had no respect for them. The drunks I see are not the grape farmers but those in the city who are trying to mask a problem with alcohol. Maybe you can, but I just cannot think of one grape farmer I know who has an alcohol problem.

Its much like the idea that most motorcycle racers I know feel about motorcycle riders on the street. They have no desire to ride their motorcycle on the road. They consider it unsafe and see people who ride their motorcycle on the street as stupid.

When I visited my relatives in Nebraska I had no desire to pick the marijuana on their farm and smoke it. Now they are required to disc or plow it under. They don't want the risk of having it. Whereas years ago it was no big deal.

If a person wants to feel strange they can find a way to alter their mind. From what I have seen of drunks I have no desire to be like them. Drunks do not have so much of a problem with drinking as an even greater deep seated problem they are hoping to cope with by altering their mind. There are people who sleep all the time. There are those who eat too much. Problems cannot be dealt with by using something to mask the problem. The humble find grace and help. It is those who cover their problem, who are not humble.

 

[blackbird]

Paul did not say no longer drink water exclusively, he said no longer drink water. That means he told Timothy to abstain completely from drinking water.

Diggin---dude---that can't be right!! See, because noone can live more than a few(3-4 days) days without water!! The wine Paul told Timothy to drink was in the form of medicine---to drink wine or grape juice exclusively--in the place of water---do you know what the "ramifications" would be to your little tummy and intestineal system??

Blackbird

 

[StefanM]

Paul did not say no longer drink water exclusively, he said no longer drink water. That means he told Timothy to abstain completely from drinking water.

Literally he told him not to be a "water-drinker" (i.e. one who drinks only water and not wine).

Apparently Timothy did not drink wine.

 

[StefanM]

And if we are going to stretch passages...

There is water content in wine, alcoholic or not.

 

[StefanM]

Diggin---dude---that can't be right!! See, because noone can live more than a few(3-4 days) days without water!! The wine Paul told Timothy to drink was in the form of medicine---to drink wine or grape juice exclusively--in the place of water---do you know what the "ramifications" would be to your little tummy and intestineal system??

Blackbird

If grape juice, not much. There is water in grape juice.

Now if Timothy only drank alcoholic wine, then he'd be sloshed.

Of course, Paul tells him only to take "a little wine" (i.e. not that much).

 

[blackbird]

And if we are going to stretch passages...

There is water content in wine, alcoholic or not.

Thats true, Stefan---BUT---Diggin has implied a abstinence of water beverage---we can receive water from grape juice, thats true---but not near enough to sustain what the body demands by that alone!!

Bro. David

 

[Diggin in da Word]

King James Version 1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

American Standard Version 1 Timothy 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Tyndale 1 Timothy 5:23 Drynke no lenger water but vse a lytell wyne for thy stommakes sake and thyne often diseases.

Wycliffe 1 Timothy 5:23 Nyle thou yit drinke watir, but vse a litil wyn, for thi stomac, and `for thin ofte fallynge infirmytees.

All of these versions say, 'Lay off the water'

When Timothy's stomach was bothering him the most, when it was inflamed, Paul was instructing total abstinence from water, but to substitute that water for wine (grape juice) at those times when he was suffering those ailments.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have not seen one mind changed on here or the other wine threads. The thrust of the threads are is it ok to drink a small amount of wine. Even those who say its ok to drink turn it into a "small" amount. Well, that tells you a lot, if you have to turn it into such a "small" amount then must be something wrong with it but we only want to hurt ourselves a little. I see no gain for these "wine" threads whatsoever. I had not realized the world had changed so much that Christianity had accepted drinking socialably as being acceptable in the Church. Well, it is not acceptable in ours and because I say someone is wrong about believing acohol is ok to drink does not mean I am calling them a name but only telling what I believe the Scriptures says.

Its much like the idea that most motorcycle racers I know feel about motorcycle riders on the street. They have no desire to ride their motorcycle on the road. They consider it unsafe and see people who ride their motorcycle on the street as stupid.

This seems to say the "grape farmer" at least knows what the drinking of wine could bring so chooses to stay away from it.

Again, what I see wrong is the world reads our posts and believes that Baptist believe its ok to drink acohol. Maybe they do but the Baptist I know do not believe that. peace

 

[gb93433]

The thrust of the threads are is it ok to drink a small amount of wine. Even those who say its ok to drink turn it into a "small" amount. Well, that tells you a lot, if you have to turn it into such a "small" amount then must be something wrong with it but we only want to hurt ourselves a little.

What makes you think a little hurts? Is that what you learned as a kid in a science class? Science is beginning to make claims that show otherwise. Do you believe the chameleon of science or the never changing God's word.?

I gave you quite a number of verses to support my point of view and you did not respond. I am assuming by your lack of response that you did not look up any of those verses. If you did it might require some serious thought and confrontation with your beliefs.

Freedom in Christ is having the freedom to not be a stumbling block to anyone. It is having the fredom to drink wine or not drink wine. It is having the fredom to eat meat or not eat meat. Paul said he could eat meat or not eat meat. But he chose not to eat meat so that he was not a stumbling block to the weak. It is the weak who are offended in that case. I am free to drink wine or not drink wine. I am never free to be offense to someone as an aid in hindering the gospel of Christ.

This seems to say the "grape farmer" at least knows what the drinking of wine could bring so chooses to stay away from it.

You are right and wrong. I do not know of one grape farmer that does not drink wine unless he does not have any. The grape farmer has control and is free to drink or not drink.

Again, what I see wrong is the world reads our posts and believes that Baptist believe its ok to drink acohol. Maybe they do but the Baptist I know do not believe that. peace

It is funny you should write such a thing because a man I talked with about two years ago for about two hours thought many who believed that were stupid. Stupid is the word he used. So apparently what you believe has given him a negative image of Christians.

All you have to do is to do a little research into the typical practice among Baptist churches before prohibition. I cannot think of any I have studied which did not serve wine for communion. Apparently the Bible of many Baptists in America today has changed since then. What do you suppose they used before Mr. Welch came around and tried pasteurizing grape juice. All you need to do is to cross an ocean and visit some of the Baptist Churches there to see what they use for communion. You could just write some as well.

A friend of mine who led me to Christ years ago was later a missionary and then a pastor in Germany. He told me that while he was there if you did not drink beer people wondered why and saw that as poor. It hindered a Christian's witness. He also stated that for someone to get drunk was a real taboo.

If wine was not ever alcoholic then how did Noah get drunk?

All I see is that you have provided your opinion. I have failed to see any serious study to back your opinion. Don't you owe us at least that much if you disagree with us. Certainly you must be able to give a sound reason for your faith.

Is it only the Americans who have perfect theology? Are Baptists in other countries wrong to drink wine? The inescapable fact is that they do drink wine for communion.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Brother Bob,

Don't be offended, they refused the words of the prophets in the Word of God before they refused our testimony and witness.