Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation

[Jope]

Wrong again. You continue to confuse dispensationalism with Premilllennialism. Different things.

Here is a hint: Not all Premillennialists are dispensationalists.

They are not "historic" premillennialists either then. Historic premillennialists, as they wrongly like to call themselves, like to highlight that the early Church Fathers believed the church was on earth in the tribulation. They also neglect a great amount of material in the primitive Church that clearly proves that they did believe in a pretribulational rapture of the same Church. Darby himself as well as Scofield knew their doctrine was a restoration of the primitive church doctrine. Darby and Scofield erred on their Ecclesiology, however.

 

[TCassidy]

Read my post instead of making straw man fallacies and you will have your answer. No jokes your answer is right in there.

You have also confused OT Jewish believers with modern day Jews.

The OT Jewish believers worship the same God that I do. Our God is Father, Son (the Messiah), and the Holy Spirit.

Those OT Jewish believers recognized Jesus as the Messiah and continued to worship the same God.

But other Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and their descendants today continue to reject Him as God the Son, the Second Person of the Triunity of God and thus worship a false, non-Triune God.

 

[Jope]

Can't see the Truth, can you. LOL!

??? Nice red herring! [edited]

When you're ready to forsake your fallacious argumentation style void of listening to actual positions and thus void of logical coherent sense let me know.

 

[TCassidy]

Historic premillennialists, as they wrongly like to call themselves, like to highlight that the early Church Fathers believed the church was on earth in the tribulation.

Yes, most, but not all, Historic Premillennialists tended to be Post-Trib.

Are you now confusing Pre-Mid-Post Trib with Pre-Post-A Mill?

They also neglect a great amount of material in the primitive Church that clearly proves that they did believe in a pretribulational rapture of the same Church.

There are some verses which seem to suggest a Pre-trib rapture. Just as there are some verses which seem to suggest a Mid-trib rapture. And there are some verses which seem to suggest a Post-trib rapture.

But don't confuse Pre-Mid-Post trib with Pre-Post-A mill. Two very different things.

Darby himself as well as Scofield knew their doctrine was a restoration of the primitive church doctrine.

And God did not misplace his doctrine so it did not need to be restored.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Good point, Martin. A careful study with attention to cross references in the OC & NC Scriptures will yield understanding, but caution in interpreting is advisable. I preached through Revelation from the late date, amil understanding in the 90s, but further study changed that understanding.

Thank you for your kind words, but you will understand that the fact that you have changed your mind on this subject is not necessarily a reason for me to do so.

Amil is very helpful, in understanding the present time - as Christians down the ages have found as they see themselves in the comparable situations. However that approach fails to address the Revelation as specific prophecy.

I don't quite see why you would say that. Amillennialism sees Revelation as a prophecy of the whole period from the writing of the book until the Return of Christ. You may disagree with that interpretation, but if, as I believe, it is correct, then it is just as specific as the Holy Spirit intended it to be.

 

[Jope]

And God did not misplace his doctrine so it did not need to be restored.

What does this even mean? Are you saying that pretribulationalism always existed since it was never misplaced? Thanks for supporting my position then.

 

[Jope]

Yes, most, but not all, Historic Premillennialists tended to be Post-Trib.

Are you now confusing Pre-Mid-Post Trib with Pre-Post-A Mill?

????? Where do you come up with this stuff? Are you sure you read theology?

Walvoord states that post-tribulationalism can be the belief of Post- and A- Millennialists, depending on whether such a person is full preterist or not. If they are full preterist, they are not post-tribulationalist, since they believe that it already happened. He is correct on these two points. I don't see how he couldn't be correct. I don't know of any on the opposing side would argue against him on these two points. They are not even the subject of dispute.

 

[Jope]

There are some verses which seem to suggest a Pre-trib rapture. Just as there are some verses which seem to suggest a Mid-trib rapture. And there are some verses which seem to suggest a Post-trib rapture.

In the section of my post you're replying to, I'm not talking about Bible verses. Don't make my position, the section of my post you're replying to, to be speaking about bible verses. Don't build straw man arguments. And don't make a response that its reprehensible to talk about theology or the Church Fathers, because 1), I would rather not have another silly debate about that and 2) that would be a deviation and beside the point I'm arguing.

It makes no difference towards my point whether the bible contains verses that support all three rapture theories or theologies. My contention was that Historic Premillennial theology believes that they are the "historic" view of the church, but they neglect the belief of said Church who held to pretribulationalism. The Historic Premillennial position, as it is called today by Ladd and his followers, cannot believe in pretribulationalism either, since their ecclesiology forbids it. Ladd believes in replacement theology and doesn't distinguish the earthly ekklesiastical Jews and Gentiles from the heavenly ekklesiastical ones.

"A futuristic school of interpretation among posttribulationism, however, has also emerged. One of the most prominent is George Ladd whose work, The Blessed Hope, promotes the view that the great tribulation is still future. While other views of posttribulationism could conceivably be harmonized with the idea that Christ could return any moment, Ladd considers it inevitable that at least a seven-year period (described in Dan 9:27) separates the church today from the rapture and the second advent of Christ which are aspects of the same event. Although Ladd’s argument builds largely on the fact of the history of the doctrine and extols posttribulationism as the norm for orthodoxy through the centuries, he introduces a new realism into the picture in adopting a literal future tribulation. His views have somewhat been qualified by his later writings, but in general he seems to retain a futuristic view of the great tribulation with its corresponding doctrine that Christ’s return could not be any day, but that it can only follow the years required to fulfill prophecies relating to the tribulation.

The most recent theory of posttribulationism has been advanced by Robert Gundry in his work, The Church and the Tribulation. Gundry, following the lead of many premillenarians, distinguishes Israel and the church as separate entities and attempts a literal interpretation of many of the prophecies that deal with the end times. In advancing his [ekklesia] theory he refutes most of the posttribulationists who have preceded him. Working with these premises he endeavors to establish a new doctrine of posttribulationism [not historic premillennialism] which he tries to harmonize with a literal interpretation of prophecy." - Walvoord, Posttribulationalism Today​

 

[Jope]

Wrong again

You just proved that you do not read theology, even when I give you quotes.

 

[Jope]

You have also confused OT Jewish believers with modern day Jews.

The OT Jewish believers worship the same God that I do. Our God is Father, Son (the Messiah), and the Holy Spirit.

Those OT Jewish believers recognized Jesus as the Messiah and continued to worship the same God.

But other Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and their descendants today continue to reject Him as God the Son, the Second Person of the Triunity of God and thus worship a false, non-Triune God.

The unbelieving Jews have a zeal for the correct God but not according to knowledge (Romans 10:1-2). God gives gifts even to unbelievers (the epistle of James teaches this in Jas 1:5, "God...gives to all generously"). Deuteronomy 29:13 says that God will always be the Jews' God as long as they are Abraham's descendants, regardless of whether they believe.

"Today he will affirm that you are his people and that he is your God, just as he promised you and as he swore by oath to your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (NET).​

 

[Happy]

So, you are claiming the Jews worship Jesus, as God the Son? I am afraid you are sadly confused.

Secondly, as I am not a dispensationalist I am not overly concerned that my biblical views of the Identity of the Godhead, are, as you falsely claim, outside of dispensational theology.

And, unlike you, who seems unaware that God the Son is the Second Person of the Triune Godhead, my position is the orthodox one.

As you said in an earlier posting, "Read some theology."

Better yet, read some Bible. What did Paul say their worship was lacking? (Romans 10:10) "Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus." Confess that Jesus is the Messiah, the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead, which, up until now, most Jews were denying.

The Jews worship God Almighty and Trust His Word.

Christians worship Lord God Almighty and Trust His Word IS the Lord Jesus revealed as the Christ.

Seems the Jews (for the most part), became convinced additional knowledge, was not to be trusted.
Gentiles however readily accept God (the Father) Almighty (Spirit Power) and the name revealed of
Gods Word (first known as Jesus, then revealed the Christ).

Scripture ties the "whole" of God as God Himself ~ Spirit, Power, Word, Seed ~ which applies to thee;
Lord God Almighty. <-- Son, Father & Power/ HS.



Knowledge has been revealed from the beginning. Understanding always comes directly from God.
God favors those WHOM trust and believe in Him.
Scripture reveals WHO that applies to.

Exod.31
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge,

1Kgs.4
[29] And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much,

1Chr.22
[12] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding,

Luke.24
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

 

[asterisktom]

All of this is meaningless if you can't answer my points: I'll reiterate and clarify.

(1) Where is the historical record of persecution of Jews by Christians after the book of Acts? (I'll grant you James the Just, but that hardly deserves the destruction of Jerusalem.)
(2) If there is no such record, why would God destroy Jerusalem for the persecution recorded in the NT? (No one but Stephen was killed for Christ in the NT.) I think your point is insufficient here, since you give nothing but your opinion that their stubbornness, etc., was the reason. Give Scripture for that point, not just Stephen's statement, which promises no judgment.
(3) The persecution of Christians by Nero was far greater than any by the Jews, even that mentioned in the NT. Why did God not destroy Rome then or judge the Romans in some other way?

I took the time to read carefully your post and then responded with both Scripture and reasoned application. If it is all "meaningless" to you I don't see the point in continuing. My answer to your questions is in my post. Some have also been addressed by Covenanter.

As for number two:You can find the Scripture as well as I can. It is all in there. But I suspect you read what you want to read - rather the way you want to read. Moreover you show no acknowledgment that I gave an answer to why God destroyed Jerusalem. Above, you repeat the question as if I had not answered it.

But I agree with you that this is getting off Jon's topic.With that I will stick a fork here and declare it done.

 

[HankD]

You have also confused OT Jewish believers with modern day Jews.

The OT Jewish believers worship the same God that I do. Our God is Father, Son (the Messiah), and the Holy Spirit.

Those OT Jewish believers recognized Jesus as the Messiah and continued to worship the same God.

But other Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and their descendants today continue to reject Him as God the Son, the Second Person of the Triunity of God and thus worship a false, non-Triune God.

I agree.

The New American Bible has this:

NAB John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

The KJV has "if ye believe not that I am he", "he" being in italics showing that "he" is not in the Greek text and the I am" is ego eimi same as John 8:58

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi).
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him...

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

What does this even mean?

Exactly what it says.

Are you saying that pretribulationalism always existed since it was never misplaced?

Yes. Pretribulationalism was evident in the writing of the early church fathers, and was believed, by many of the dissenting churches, all down through the ages of ecclesiastical history.

Thanks for supporting my position then.

I didn't support your position. My position is Pretribulationalism. Yours is Dispensationalism. Once again, they are NOT the same thing.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

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[Covenanter]

I have an odd taste in music & I have a Shaker music book.
A tune that fascinated me had me looking for new words to go with it. While I was washing this morning, the words came, from Rev. 5:

Let us praise the name of Jesus
He is the Lord of heaven & earth
Jesus the Lion shouts in triumph;
Jesus, Lamb, the sacrifice.
Blessing, and honour, glory, power
unto the Father & Son on the throne;
now the sealed scrolls will all be opened,
now God's plans will be made known.

Tune – Shaker harvest song.

Needs some more verses. I may put in a music thread. Then you will all be singing my song

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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