Apostolic Uniqueness - total dependence on God

[JonC]

On another thread @Iconoclast argued against the statement

The Holy Spirit guides us to all spiritual truth. We cannot claim to have arrived at spiritual truth in any other way

claiming that the guidance of the Spirit was limited to the Apostles.

Granted, divine revelation has been accomplished BUT Is God still active in the lives of His people? Or is God "dead" ..... or something in between?

My view is today's church too often dismisses the power of God and the work of the Spirit. This is why churches die regardless of its theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

On another thread @Iconoclast argued against the statement claiming that the guidance of the Spirit was limited to the Apostles.

Granted, divine revelation has been accomplished BUT Is God still active in the lives of His people? Or is God "dead" ..... or something in between?

My view is today's church too often dismisses the power of God and the work of the Spirit. This is why churches die regardless of its theology.

That was not what I claimed at all. in fact I have posted to that several times.
The only verse that says anyone is going to be guided...INTO ALL TRUTH,
IS JN 16:13.
Do you have any other verse in the bible that indicates that anyone is going to be guided into all truth? I am not aware of any other verse.

 

[JonC]

That was not what I claimed at all. in fact I have posted to that several times.
The only verse that says anyone is going to be guided...INTO ALL TRUTH,
IS JN 16:13.
Do you have any other verse in the bible that indicates that anyone is going to be guided into all truth? I am not aware of any other verse.

The quote you rejected in the OP stated that the Spirit leads to all truth and no spiritual truth is obtained apart form the Spirit.

Do you have a verse that states another way to obtain spiritual truth than God? Is it Calvin? or John Gill?

Please, let us know.

OR did you take the first sentence of the quote of the OP out of context and run with it? If so, then how can you be trusted to discern important things if you goof up comments made by a member who really does not matter/

 

[Reformed]

My view is today's church too often dismisses the power of God and the work of the Spirit. This is why churches die regardless of its theology.

Your comment is anecdotal. I can just as easily say that today's church takes the role of the Holy Spirit too far, emphasizing experience over the Word of God. Both statements (yours and mine) are true to the extent that individuals and churches do those things.

I am not going to get in between you and Icon but I will address the role of the Holy Spirit. If I ask you to define "the power of God the work of the Spirit" you will have to give me an example of what you mean. I am a Cessationist but that does not mean I deny that the Holy Spirit is active today. Without the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to know God (Romans 8:11). The Holy Spirit is an active person in the Ordo Salutis (John 3:5-8). Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16) and display the fruit of the Spirit in their life (Galatians 5:22-24). The power of God is evident when Christians walk by the Spirit and work in the Spirit.

Now, there are some (notice I did not say "all","most", or "many" - words means things) Christians who believe that is not enough. They are looking for some external experience that they can point to and say (using your words), "the power of God and the work of the Spirit." Do I believe there are times when the Spirit of God works in extraordinary ways? I do. I came to faith in Christ in the late 1970s during the "Jesus Movement" that swept the nation. While there were a lot of crazy things going on in that movement in the name of God, there was a genuine movement of the Spirit in bringing sinners to repentance and faith in Christ. Of course, the preaching of the Gospel is where we can see the power of God and the work of the Spirit, and whenever the Gospel is preached in truth the Spirit does His work.

Do I dismiss other outward manifestations that some people call the work of the Spirit? It depends. I do not believe tongues are active today. I believe God heals but I do not believe He heals today in the same manner as He did through Christ and the Apostles. I do not believe in prophetic utterance (other than the proclamation of the written word of God). Many Christians disagree with me and that is fine. For my part, I can disagree with them in peace.

I close with the last two verses of Galatians 5:

Galatians 5:25-26 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

 

[JonC]

Your comment is anecdotal. I can just as easily say that today's church takes the role of the Holy Spirit too far, emphasizing experience over the Word of God. Both statements (yours and mine) are true to the extent that individuals and churches do those things.

I am not going to get in between you and Icon but I will address the role of the Holy Spirit. If I ask you to define "the power of God the work of the Spirit" you will have to give me an example of what you mean. I am a Cessationist but that does not mean I deny that the Holy Spirit is active today. Without the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to know God (Romans 8:11). The Holy Spirit is an active person in the Ordo Salutis (John 3:5-8). Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16) and display the fruit of the Spirit in their life (Galatians 5:22-24). The power of God is evident when Christians walk by the Spirit and work in the Spirit.

Now, there are some (notice I did not say "all","most", or "many" - words means things) Christians who believe that is not enough. They are looking for some external experience that they can point to you and say (using your words), "the power of God and the work of the Spirit." Do I believe there are times when the Spirit of God works in extraordinary ways? I do. I came to faith in Christ in the late 1970s during the "Jesus Movement" that swept the nation. While there were a lot of crazy things going on in that movement in the name of God, there was a genuine movement of the Spirit in bringing sinners to repentance and faith in Christ. Of course, the preaching of the Gospel is where we can see the power of God and the work of the Spirit, and whenever the Gospel is preached in truth the Spirit does His work.

Do I dismiss other outward manifestations that some people call the work of the Spirit? It depends. I do not believe tongues are active today. I believe God heals but I do not believe in miraculous healing as occurred through Christ and the Apostles. I do not believe in prophetic utterance (other than the proclamation of the written word of God). Many Christians disagree with me and that is fine. For my part, I can disagree with them in peace.

I close with the last two verses of Galatians 5:

Galatians 5:25-26 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

My comment is not anecdotal.

My comment is that we cannot arrive at spiritual truth except by the Holy Spirit.

It is plain and simple.

If you disagree then let's argue the point. But let's not pretend my comment meant anything other than what I said it meant.


Absent the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what spiritual truth's have you been given? Who or what gave you these truths?

 

[Reformed]

My comment is not anecdotal.

You wrote, "My view is today's church too often dismisses the power of God and the work of the Spirit. This is why churches die regardless of its theology." You posited a personal opinion without corroborating facts. That is the definition of anecdotal. I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am not taking you to task for it. I am saying that is an expression of your opinion, just as I am expressing my opinion.

Absent the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what spiritual truth's have you been given? Who or what gave you these truths?

I suppose it depends on how you define "guidance".

1 John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

How do we "listen" to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles? Paul gives us an answer to this question:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

All scripture is θεόπνευστος (God-breathed). It is the third person of the Trinity that is responsible for working through the Bible's human authors to give us the λόγο τοῦ θεοῦ (word of God). So, how we listen to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles is to listen to the Spirit, and we do that by reading, understanding, and applying the written word to our lives.

Like I wrote earlier about your opinion applies to me here. This is my opinion based on scripture. If you have another take on how the Spirit works, then, by all means, share it.

 

[JonC]

You wrote, "My view is today's church too often dismisses the power of God and the work of the Spirit. This is why churches die regardless of its theology." You posited a personal opinion without corroborating facts. That is the definition of anecdotal. I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am not taking you to task for it. I am saying that is an expression of your opinion, just as I am expressing my opinion.



I suppose it depends on how you define "guidance".

1 John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

How do we "listen" to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles? Paul gives us an answer to this question:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

All scripture is θεόπνευστος (God-breathed). It is the third person of the Trinity that is responsible for working through the Bible's human authors to give us the λόγο τοῦ θεοῦ (word of God). So, how we listen to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles is to listen to the Spirit, and we do that by reading, understanding, and applying the written word to our lives.

Like I wrote earlier about your opinion applies to me here. This is my opinion based on scripture. If you have another take on how the Spirit works, then, by all means, share it.

My view is that if we possess spiritual truth then this is of the Spirit. We test these ideas against Scripture, but we do not trully hold spiritual truth except it be revealed to us by God.

If you find this offensive then lets start the conversation by examining how -other than the guidance of tge Spirit - you have arrived at spiritual truth.

 

[Reformed]

My view is that if we possess spiritual truth then this is of the Spirit.

How does one possess spiritual truth? How do they gain it in order to possess it? Where does it come from?

We test these ideas against Scripture, but we do not trully hold spiritual truth except it be revealed to us by God.

This is similar to my first set of questions above. How does God reveal spiritual truth to us?

If you find this offensive

Jon, I am no shrinking violet. I am happy to discuss this.

 

[JonC]

How does one possess spiritual truth? How do they gain it in order to possess it? Where does it come from?



This is similar to my first set of questions above. How does God reveal spiritual truth to us?



Jon, I am no shrinking violet. I am happy to discuss this.

It comes from Scripture.

God puts His Spirit in us. God directs our thoughts.

Those without the Spirit cannot understand things of the Spirit.

I also will not shrink back from this conviction.

 

[Aaron]

The quote you rejected in the OP stated that the Spirit leads to all truth and no spiritual truth is obtained apart form the Spirit.

Do you have a verse that states another way to obtain spiritual truth than God? Is it Calvin? or John Gill?

Please, let us know.

OR did you take the first sentence of the quote of the OP out of context and run with it? If so, then how can you be trusted to discern important things if you goof up comments made by a member who really does not matter/

That's what I thought . . . JonC's definition of Holy Spirit is feeling and imagination.

Is teaching not a spiritual gift? Are teachers not one of the gifts given to the church by Christ when He ascended?

 

[Iconoclast]

That's what I thought . . . JonC's definition of Holy Spirit is feeling and imagination.

Is teaching not a spiritual gift? Are teachers not one of the gifts given to the church by Christ when He ascended?

Reading 1 cor2 we see why all Christian's are given the Spirit of God to welcome truth.
That does not address the unique promise to the Apostles and how they were guided differently from us.

 

[JonC]

That's what I thought . . . JonC's definition of Holy Spirit is feeling and imagination.

Is teaching not a spiritual gift? Are teachers not one of the gifts given to the church by Christ when He ascended?

No. My definition on the Holy Spirit is that He is the Spirit of God.

Men cannot understand spiritual things unless they are of the Spirit. God says He will put His Spirit in us and I believe He does.

Can you point to even ONE example when I equate the Holy Spirit to feelings and imagination? No...of course you can't because I never did.

 

[Reformed]

It comes from Scripture.

Jon, please forgive me for drilling down on your answer but I want to make sure I understand you completely.

So, in response to my question "How does one possess spiritual truth? How do they gain it in order to possess it? Where does it come from?" your answer is that these things come from scripture. Do you believe gaining and possessing spiritual truth comes from scripture alone?

God puts His Spirit in us. God directs our thoughts

Do you equate God putting His Spirit in us with being sealed with the Spirit at the point of justification? Are those two things the same or are they different?

Do you believe God directing our thoughts is more of a passive orientation towards the things of God or the active direction of the Holy Spirit? I am not asking gotcha questions here because I do not play that game. When I look at a passage such as Philippians 1:6 I see God actively working in our lives to make us more like Christ. Sometimes God's working is passive and sometimes more direct; sometimes it is obscured from our view and other times it is evident.

Those without the Spirit cannot understand things of the Spirit.

I think this in keeping with 1 Corinthians 2:14:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

The only way to accept (understand) the things of the Spirit of God is to have the Spirit of God, something that all believers acquire at the moment they are joined to Christ.

So, let me restate my first question to you in this post. Do you believe gaining and possessing spiritual truth comes from scripture alone? What I am trying to ascertain from you is whether you believe we can gain and possess spiritual truth from any other source except scripture? The reason I am asking this is to cut through all the confusion that seems to have permeated another thread and bring everything down to its lowest common denominator.

 

[JonC]

Jon, please forgive me for drilling down on your answer but I want to make sure I understand you completely.

So, in response to my question "How does one possess spiritual truth? How do they gain it in order to possess it? Where does it come from?" your answer is that these things come from scripture. Do you believe gaining and possessing spiritual truth comes from scripture alone?



Do you equate God putting His Spirit in us with being sealed with the Spirit at the point of justification? Are those two things the same or are they different?

Do you believe God directing our thoughts is more of a passive orientation towards the things of God or the active direction of the Holy Spirit? I am not asking gotcha questions here because I do not play that game. When I look at a passage such as Philippians 1:6 I see God actively working in our lives to make us more like Christ. Sometimes God's working is passive and sometimes more direct; sometimes it is obscured from our view and other times it is evident.



I think this in keeping with 1 Corinthians 2:14:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

The only way to accept (understand) the things of the Spirit of God is to have the Spirit of God, something that all believers acquire at the moment they are joined to Christ.

So, let me restate my first question to you in this post. Do you believe gaining and possessing spiritual truth comes from scripture alone? What I am trying to ascertain from you is whether you believe we can gain and possess spiritual truth from any other source except scripture? The reason I am asking this is to cut through all the confusion that seems to have permeated another thread and bring everything down to its lowest common denominator.

Spiritual truth (the information) comes from Scripture alone. Scripture is the only source. But we cannot truly understand spiritual things except we are born again.

Think of it this way - the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. They may be able to read Scripture and understand its words, but Scripture as spiritual truth escapes them as they are not reborn.

 

[Reformed]

Spiritual truth (the information) comes from Scripture alone. Scripture is the only source. But we cannot truly understand spiritual things except we are born again.

I think that is what we learn from 1 Corinthians 2:14, that the natural (unsaved) man cannot appropriate (understand) the things of the Spirit.

When you write, "Spiritual truth (the information) comes from scripture alone" does this mean that scripture is the only source of spiritual truth as far as the individual Christian is concerned? Is there any other source of spiritual truth?

 

[MB]

I think that is what we learn from 1 Corinthians 2:14, that the natural (unsaved) man cannot appropriate (understand) the things of the Spirit.

When you write, "Spiritual truth (the information) comes from scripture alone" does this mean that scripture is the only source of spiritual truth as far as the individual Christian is concerned? Is there any other source of spiritual truth?

It amazes me that the verse 1 st Cor 2:14 is claimed to say so much since Paul was speaking of the deep things of God. There are most likely many real born again Christians who do not understand the deep things of God. The deep things are the meat of scripture. The milk of the word can be understood by anyone who listens or reads it.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Notice that God revealed them to Paul. Obviously Pail didn't understand them either until God revealed them to Him.
I know spiritual truth has to line up with scripture and it should not be a complicated matter to do this. The Spirit guides me I have no doubt of it. It's a matter of trusting the Spirit to do so.
MB

 

[JonC]

I think that is what we learn from 1 Corinthians 2:14, that the natural (unsaved) man cannot appropriate (understand) the things of the Spirit.

When you write, "Spiritual truth (the information) comes from scripture alone" does this mean that scripture is the only source of spiritual truth as far as the individual Christian is concerned? Is there any other source of spiritual truth?

What I mean is the source for spiritual truth is God. There is no other source except Scripture (as Scripture is the measure for all doctrine) BUT absent the active work of the Spirit we cannot understand.

The difference, I think, is that I believe the Christian remains dependent on God after salvation where some seem to hint (if I understand them correctly) otherwise.

 

[Reformed]

What I mean is the source for spiritual truth is God. There is no other source except Scripture (as Scripture is the measure for all doctrine) BUT absent the active work of the Spirit we cannot understand.

I concur.

The difference, I think, is that I believe the Christian remains dependent on God after salvation where some seem to hint (if I understand them correctly) otherwise.

Jon, the following verse makes the point that Christians are dependent on God after salvation. I hope no professing Christian disagrees with this.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[JonC]

I concur.



Jon, the following verse makes the point that Christians are dependent on God after salvation. I hope no professing Christian disagrees with this.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

I agree. Personally I was surprised that my comment was taken as disputable. I think that the OP took it in a way not intended. Looking back I can see how that one sentence could be taken two different ways. But my whole point was the Christian's continued dependence on God.

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,

It amazes me that the verse 1 st Cor 2:14 is claimed to say so much since Paul was speaking of the deep things of God.

No Paul was speaking of all things that are of God,
ylt
6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless,

7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,

8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'

10 but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,

11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,

13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;

15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;

16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.