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Apostolic Uniqueness

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Yeshua1

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1689Dave

1689Dave

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Baptist Believer said:
Please post scripture for this assertion.

Moreover, the 120 who were in the Upper Room (both men and women -- see Act 1:13-15) spoke in tongues (Acts 2:1-11). Peter explained why the 120 spoke in tongues (even the women!) when he referenced the prophet Joel, who wrote "your sons and daughters will prophesy" (Acts 2:17).


Not in all cases. There are reasons the Spirit waited to baptize the Samaritans. It was a witness to The Twelve that the hated Samaritans were part of the family of God.

REMEMBER, the Holy Spirit is not a "force" like in Star Wars or in some charismatic theologies. The Holy Spirit is a Person of the Triune God. The Spirit does not play by rules, but makes supernaturally intelligence choices as to how to best accomplish the purposes of the Godhead.

Going back to your assertion that they "passed [the Holy Spirit baptism] through their hands," look at Acts 10 where Peter is presenting the gospel to the household and friends of Cornelius. Peter was in the midst of his presentation and the Spirit came upon the hearers, with exactly the same evidence that was given at Pentecost, showing Peter that the Gentiles were also part of the family of God, just like those with the blood of Abraham in their veins. Note that Peter DID NOT lay hands on them. He did not even get the chance to finish his presentation before the Spirit acted.

So your claim that the apostles passed it through their hands does not hold in light of scripture.


Do you have a passage of scripture in mind that shows them trying and that they could not?

Beyond that, I have already established that the Spirit baptism does not necessarily get passed in that method, so the presupposition of this assertion is questionable.


What's the scripture for this?


The false presuppositions behind this statement include the belief that:

(1) Paul had the power within himself to heal and make decisions about who was to be healed. He did not. Not even the pre-resurrection Jesus had that power and took the direction of the Father and Spirit to initiate the miraculous works (see John 5:19-20, 20). In the context of this passage, Jesus walked among a large group of "sick, blind, limping, and paralyzed people" and only healed one man (see John 5:3-9). In His hometown of Nazareth, Jesus was not able to do many miracles because of their unbelief (see Matthew 13:58 and Mark 6:5-6). The Father and Spirit were guiding and initiating the miracles that Jesus performed.

(2) Healing is always within the will of God. When, in the Divine wisdom, it would not serve God's greater purposes, Jesus was not empowered for miracles. Neither was Paul or any other apostle/deacon/disciple. Paul could not even get healing for himself, since physical infirmity (in his case) was a way for him to remain humble and reliant upon God (see 2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
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If you make a fresh study, the 120 were in a different time and place. You should be able to prove this. Just stick to the word and don't assume anything.
 
I

Iconoclast

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John of Japan said:
Hope you caught some nice ones.
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The fellowship was better than the fishing period I did catch the largest fish of the day on the boat but the fellowship of with there were a couple of pastors on board and Bob Selph is he oversaw missions he's been in nine or ten different countries you know working with the missionaries and the translators and the and setting up local churches and all that kind of things so I always like to meet with him and pick his brain .
now if I get more time off eventually I hope to visit the church he's in Atlanta you know he's been in the Carolinas he's been up on Long Island and any you know as missioned coordinator he was all around the world so I I'd like to talk with a lot more and I like to run ideas by him so I I had a back off a little because I'll I'll talk someone's ear off but you know I know he was also like the let his hair down a little and relax and just you know fish and hang out I mean you know we we got talking a bit I tried to control myself not not to just talk his ear off.but you know when I get to meet with someone like that I I tried to learn you know he he's more gifted and more experienced than I am so I want to you know see if I can glean something I can use in trying to present gospel truth to people.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

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Iconoclast said:
The fellowship was better than the fishing period I did catch the largest fish of the day on the boat but the fellowship of with there were a couple of pastors on board and Bob self is he oversaw missions he's been in nine or ten different countries you know working with the missionaries and the translators and the and setting up local churches and all that kind of things so I always like to meet with him and pick his brain .
now if I get more time off eventually I hope to visit the church he's in Atlanta you know he's been in the Carolinas he's been up on Long Island and any you know as missioned coordinator he was all around the world so I I'd like to talk with a lot more and I like to run ideas by him so I I had a back off a little because I'll I'll talk someone's ear off but you know I know he was also like the let his hair down a little and relax and just you know fish and hang out I mean you know we we got talking a bit I tried to control myself not not to just talk his ear off.but you know when I get to meet with someone like that I I tried to learn you know he he's more gifted and more experienced than I am so I want to you know see if I can glean something I can use in trying to present gospel truth to people.
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I love talking to these missionary statesmen who have traveled to many fields. Our missions pastor is like that--just got back from Africa, and is full of stories.
 
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Iconoclast

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John of Japan said:
I love talking to these missionary statesmen who have traveled to many fields. Our missions pastor is like that--just got back from Africa, and is full of stories.
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If I ever get to deliver those Cinnabons up to Wisconsin I intend to pick your brain also LOL
 
Baptist Believer

Baptist Believer

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Yeshua1 said:
Galatians 2:7
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Thank you for quoting scripture. Now let's compare it to your original claim:

Galatians 2:7-9 reads:

But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who was at work for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised was at work for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.​

There is nothing here specifically putting those words in the mouth of Peter. It is not even clear that Peter was present when Paul first came to meet some of the apostles in Jerusalem. Moreover, Paul AND Barnabas were sent "to the Gentiles," not solely, Paul.

So your primary claim of Paul being the only apostle to the Gentiles is wrong, based on the scriptural evidence you cited. We have no idea what Peter said here, but I think it is safe to assume that he approved of Paul going to the Gentiles, especially since Peter was the first to take the gospel to them himself (Acts 10).

And if you are familiar with Acts, you will know that Paul's practice when entering a new city was to go find the synagogue and first present the gospel to them. So Paul definitely took the gospel to the circumcised, and it was frequent enough that he circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3) so that it would not be a stumbling block to the Jews to which he ministered.
 
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Iconoclast

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Eph.2:20 speaks of the Apostles being used of God mightly bringing the Old Covenant to a close,and transitioning to the New Covenant.
The Israelite theocracy was ending.
Gentiles were going to be grafted in as per.Romans 11.
The Apostles were those ordained by God to communicate these transitional truths.
The signs of the Apostles manifested in the first century were the means God used to authenticate the New Testament instruction.Acts4:10-16
Acts4:33, Acts5:10-16,19 Acts6:6-7 ,Acts11:1-16...vs16 shows the promises given in Jn14,15,16,as being fulfilled to them as promised.
Acts14:3
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Baptist Believer said:
Please post scripture for this assertion.

Moreover, the 120 who were in the Upper Room (both men and women -- see Act 1:13-15) spoke in tongues (Acts 2:1-11). Peter explained why the 120 spoke in tongues (even the women!) when he referenced the prophet Joel, who wrote "your sons and daughters will prophesy" (Acts 2:17).


Not in all cases. There are reasons the Spirit waited to baptize the Samaritans. It was a witness to The Twelve that the hated Samaritans were part of the family of God.

REMEMBER, the Holy Spirit is not a "force" like in Star Wars or in some charismatic theologies. The Holy Spirit is a Person of the Triune God. The Spirit does not play by rules, but makes supernaturally intelligence choices as to how to best accomplish the purposes of the Godhead.

Going back to your assertion that they "passed [the Holy Spirit baptism] through their hands," look at Acts 10 where Peter is presenting the gospel to the household and friends of Cornelius. Peter was in the midst of his presentation and the Spirit came upon the hearers, with exactly the same evidence that was given at Pentecost, showing Peter that the Gentiles were also part of the family of God, just like those with the blood of Abraham in their veins. Note that Peter DID NOT lay hands on them. He did not even get the chance to finish his presentation before the Spirit acted.

So your claim that the apostles passed it through their hands does not hold in light of scripture.


Do you have a passage of scripture in mind that shows them trying and that they could not?

Beyond that, I have already established that the Spirit baptism does not necessarily get passed in that method, so the presupposition of this assertion is questionable.


What's the scripture for this?


The false presuppositions behind this statement include the belief that:

(1) Paul had the power within himself to heal and make decisions about who was to be healed. He did not. Not even the pre-resurrection Jesus had that power and took the direction of the Father and Spirit to initiate the miraculous works (see John 5:19-20, 20). In the context of this passage, Jesus walked among a large group of "sick, blind, limping, and paralyzed people" and only healed one man (see John 5:3-9). In His hometown of Nazareth, Jesus was not able to do many miracles because of their unbelief (see Matthew 13:58 and Mark 6:5-6). The Father and Spirit were guiding and initiating the miracles that Jesus performed.

(2) Healing is always within the will of God. When, in the Divine wisdom, it would not serve God's greater purposes, Jesus was not empowered for miracles. Neither was Paul or any other apostle/deacon/disciple. Paul could not even get healing for himself, since physical infirmity (in his case) was a way for him to remain humble and reliant upon God (see 2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
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Before Pentecost:

“And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)” Acts 1:15 (KJV 1900)
“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

At Pentecost:

"They" are the eleven and Mathias. the subject change of the preceding verse.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” Acts 1:26–2:1 (KJV 1900)

“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:” Acts 2:14 (KJV 1900)
 
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Iconoclast

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Missionaries and church planters are vital to the Great Commision and obey God putting their own life on the line. They leave the comforts of domestic life in their home country acquiring language and knowledge of the culture they are called to. Many times there are severe hardships.
They are not Apostles or Prophets however.
The Nt.Apostles and prophets were used by God as foundational to set the paradigm that is used by the church planter/missionary.
They provided the completion of the Canon with the Lord Jesus being our full final.Propher , Priest, and King.Hebrews 1:1-3....
Mk16:20 speaks of the Lord confirming His word as presented by the Apostles.
This is exactly what is the means used to enable Great Mission activity to go worldwide.
A more sure word of Prophecy as Peter teaches us.2 Pet.1:16-21.
 
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John of Japan

John of Japan

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Iconoclast said:
Missionaries and church planters are vital to the Great Commision and obey God putting their own life on the line. They leave the comforts of domestic life in their home country acquiring language and knowledge of the culture they are called to. Many times there are severe hardships.
They are not Apostles or Prophets however.
The Nt.Apostles and prophets were used by God as foundational to set the paradigm that is used by the church planter/missionary.
They provided the completion of the Canon with the Lord Jesus being our full final.Propher , Priest, and King.Hebrews 1:1-3....
Mk16:20 speaks of the Lord confirming His word as presented by the Apostles.
This is exactly what is the means used to enable Great Mission activity to go worldwide.
A more sure word of Prophecy as Peter teaches us.2 Pet.1:16-21.
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The apostles won souls and planted churches. That is how they were foundational according to Eph. 2:20. The 12 were foundational in that they introduced the church age, starting the first local churches. However, all of the NT apostles were soul winners and church planters. Modern missionaries are, too. We live the book of Acts like no other Christian workers do.

The book of Acts is open ended. There is no conclusion. Therefore, the Acts of the Holy Spirit continues, though not inscribed in Sacred Writ.

As for the completion of the canon, that was done not by only apostles.
 
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Yeshua1

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Baptist Believer said:
Thank you for quoting scripture. Now let's compare it to your original claim:

Galatians 2:7-9 reads:

But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who was at work for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised was at work for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.​

There is nothing here specifically putting those words in the mouth of Peter. It is not even clear that Peter was present when Paul first came to meet some of the apostles in Jerusalem. Moreover, Paul AND Barnabas were sent "to the Gentiles," not solely, Paul.

So your primary claim of Paul being the only apostle to the Gentiles is wrong, based on the scriptural evidence you cited. We have no idea what Peter said here, but I think it is safe to assume that he approved of Paul going to the Gentiles, especially since Peter was the first to take the gospel to them himself (Acts 10).

And if you are familiar with Acts, you will know that Paul's practice when entering a new city was to go find the synagogue and first present the gospel to them. So Paul definitely took the gospel to the circumcised, and it was frequent enough that he circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3) so that it would not be a stumbling block to the Jews to which he ministered.
Click to expand...
Jesus commissioned Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles and peter and John confirmed that mission!
 
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Yeshua1

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John of Japan said:
The apostles won souls and planted churches. That is how they were foundational according to Eph. 2:20. The 12 were foundational in that they introduced the church age, starting the first local churches. However, all of the NT apostles were soul winners and church planters. Modern missionaries are, too. We live the book of Acts like no other Christian workers do.

The book of Acts is open ended. There is no conclusion. Therefore, the Acts of the Holy Spirit continues, though not inscribed in Sacred Writ.

As for the completion of the canon, that was done not by only apostles.
Click to expand...
There are no Apostles today in the NT sense of the greater use of that time!
 
Baptist Believer

Baptist Believer

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Yeshua1 said:
Jesus commissioned Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles and peter and John confirmed that mission!
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I agree that Jesus commissioned Paul as AN apostle to the Gentiles (along with others) and The Twelve (which includes Peter and John) confirmed that commission.

I have to note that this is a somewhat new claim for you, since you previously put words in Peter's mouth. However, you are quite consistent in asserting (wrongly) that Paul was the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles.
 
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