Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[HisWitness]

OH....and NO one is arguing that fact dude.....I agree with you....but, you don't seem to realize that it doesn't prove your point :sleep:

all that your theory on this subject leads too is the WORKS of man instead of the GRACE of God--if you say those who follow after Adams works are condemned,then in like manner you must say all those who follow after the WORKS of Christ are justified--there is no middle ground--this line of thought only leads to man's works instead of the GRACE of God :godisgood:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This could not be more rightly stated....Winman does LITTLE but counter arguments STRAIGHT from Scripture (as he understands it)....Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right. But he simply exegetes Scripture as he knows it, and debates based on the Scripture ALONE...He's the most "Sola Scriptura" person in this debate.

He's their whipping-boy only because that is PRECISELY what he does. He is assaulted by CONSTANT abuse due to his tenacity in responding ONLY via his understanding of Scripture, and it infuriates his opposition. This is one of the reasons that although I disagree with him on some points....I find HIM convincing and others, not near as much. So, they get enraged when Win makes some arguments from Scripture. Good for them. I've never seen them really counter MOST of his arguments from Scripture....I've seen them make "Appeals to authority", "Ad Hominems", and "Ad Bacculums"...but they rarely go straight to Scripture to refute him. It's quite sad.

Yes, you are right about that. He gets charged with not using scripture, not understanding scripture, ignoring scripture, disbelieving scripture, distorting scripture, etc., etc., etc. But he constantly quotes scripture to prove his points.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yes, you are right about that. He gets charged with not using scripture, not understanding scripture, ignoring scripture, disbelieving scripture, distorting scripture, etc., etc., etc. But he constantly quotes scripture to prove his points.

Winman is no Theologian....he is NOT the most Brilliant commentator I've ever known...he isn't a genius.....nor does he think he is. He is a simple God-fearing man who derives his arguments DIRECTLY from Scripture...

Oh, he makes some mistakes....I personally disagree with how he interprets the passage where God speaks of the 3-score thousand in Jonah as referring to infants....

but...he uses Scripture ALONE...That's all he's got...he believes it, and he posts it.
I respect that, and I wish in many ways I was more like him that way. I admire his TRUE dedication to actual "Sola-Scriptura" Whatever charges are levelled upon him.....I have NO appreciation for anyone who accuses him of not making his arguments from Scripture....That's all the guy has...and he uses them. I admire him for it. I love him as a brother and true believer in Christ for it...and, frankly, I get a little defensive, for his sake, because of it.
I only WISH my faith were as simplistically Scripturally dedicated as his is.
He doesn't understand EVERYTHING.....but he ONLY argues from Scripture. No one else does so like he does.
He isn't always "right" necessarily.....but he believes the Scriptures. As you stay longer on this board, you will note how he will continue to patiently and continuosly post Scripture after Scripture to make his points.

I haven't a TENTH of the patience he has....I would LOSE my MIND!!! if people abused me as they do him...
I admire Win...He loves the Bible, even if he isn't always "perfect" in his exegesis of it.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Winman is no Theologian....he is NOT the most Brilliant commentator I've ever known...he isn't a genius.....nor does he think he is. He is a simple God-fearing man who derives his arguments DIRECTLY from Scripture...

Oh, he makes some mistakes....I personally disagree with how he interprets the passage where God speaks of the 3-score thousand in Jonah as referring to infants....

but...he uses Scripture ALONE...That's all he's got...he believes it, and he posts it.
I respect that, and I wish in many ways I was more like him that way. I admire his TRUE dedication to actual "Sola-Scriptura" Whatever charges are levelled upon him.....I have NO appreciation of anyone who accuses him of not making his arguments from Scripture....That's all the guy has...and he uses them. I admire him for it. I love him as a brother and true believer in Christ for it...and, frankly, I get a little defensive, for his sake, because of it.
I only WISH my faith were as simplistically Scripturally dedicated as his is.
He doesn't understand EVERYTHING.....but he ONLY argues from Scripture. No one else does so like he does.
He isn't always "right" necessarily.....but he believes the Scriptures. As you stay longer on this board, you will note how he will continue to patiently and continuosly post Scripture after Scripture to make his points.

I haven't a TENTH of the patience he has....I would LOSE my MIND!!! if people abused me as they do him...
I admire Win...He loves the Bible, even if he isn't always "perfect" in his exegesis of it.

I have come to feel the same way about him.

And yet I have also come to feel much the same way about some on here with whom I have the most profound theological disagreements.

I just wish we could discuss things without making it about personalities. I am guilty of that at times, too. There's a lost and dying world out there that knows nothing of the love of God shown in Jesus Christ, and yet here we are on this little corner of the internet world arguing and berating each other over fine points of theology. I am passionate about theological debate and discussion, but sometimes I think we lose sight of the larger issue, which is being the light and love of Jesus in a dark, angry, and hating world.

 

[Winman]

Wow, go away for a few hours and a riot erupts! :tongue3:

Thanks to HoS, Webdog, and Thomas for their support, I appreciate that. :thumbsup:

I don't worry about Icon, he is a puppet. I do not say that as an insult, it is simply true. His mind has been conditioned and trained by continuously listening to Reformed teachers and preachers. Anybody who does that will believe exactly as he does. Anybody can easily see nearly every Calvinist will present the same scriptures (Psa 51:5, Psa 58:3, Rom 5:12, Rom 6:23, etc...) over and over. They are just like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who have had certain proof texts drilled into their head so much and so often, they actually cannot see any other point of view. It is a REAL BLINDNESS.

So, it takes time. You have to show them scripture that refutes their view (and there is VOLUMES) over and over. Most will never get it, but those who truly want to know truth in time will see. That is the best you can do.

Romans 3:23 simply says all have sinned. It simply means all men everywhere have sinned and come short of the glory of God. As HoS said, Adam is not even mentioned, Calvinists read that into scripture.

That said, scripture is speaking of adults, not unborn or newborn babies. Paul directly says that Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb (Rom 9:11). So, when the scriptures say all have sinned, it is speaking of persons who have matured and understand right from wrong, not unborn or very young children.

Sin is not something you can inherit, sin is something you do. You cannot inherit sin, especially someone else's sin. Anybody that believes that is an idiot. The 18th chapter of Ezekiel directly deals with this subject and says the soul that sins (not being conceived or born) shall die, and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

But guys like Icon do not listen to scripture, they believe creeds written by men.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

But guys like Icon do not listen to scripture, they believe creeds written by men.

Seconded :thumbsup:....this would be o.k....except for the fact that they don't realize it.

 

[Winman]

Seconded :thumbsup:....this would be o.k....except for the fact that they don't realize it.

No, no they don't.

And you would be just as mean as them if you had someone's hand up your backside telling you every word to say.

So, don't worry, I can handle this guy. :thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

No, no they don't.

And you would be just as mean as them if you had someone's hand up your backside telling you every word to say.

So, don't worry, I can handle this guy. :thumbsup:

Winman.........You GODLESS HERETIC!!!. Don't you know that "THE CHURCH"...Has known BETTER than you for Thousands of YEARS!!!

You see, We are the Nicolaitanes....and you are mere "laity"...it is not for you to read nor interpret the Scriptures...it is for US...the "NICAO" (conquerors)...to tell you what to believe.
You have NO RIGHT!!! to interpret the Scriptures for yourself...

Don't you realize that we have "freed" you from the monolith of Caltholicism....only to subsequently enslave you with the monolith of "Reformation Theology"???

We freed you from the Pope of Rome, you see, so that you might subsequently be the slave of us "REFORMERS"!!!! Isn't everything ALL better now??

It's like Communism...Free you from the Proletariat, so that you will be a slave of the "State" now :wavey:
Every-one wins!!!:wavey:

 

[webdog]

at least he gave you a scripture that
ALL have sinned means ALL of mankind have sinned is the past tense so deal with the scripture he gave please ???

All that passage says is all who can sin have. Sin is the personal and conscious violation of Gods law

 

[Iconoclast]

He and I have exchanged for longer than you have been on this board dude. I have exchanged with him for a LONG time. You came here how long ago??

I don't "REFUSE" to deal with his Scriptures...he has posted ONE verse, guy....only ONE...Romans 3:23, and actually, his ENTIRE argument stemmed form only one particle of it...Do you know what a "particle" is??? one grammatical construct!!! His entire argument doesn't rest upon exegeting the whole verse, but rather arguing the original grammatical Greek TENSE of ONE Particle!!! And you accuse ME!!! of not using Scripture!!! I actually posted an exegetical idea spanning the ENTIRE chapter...I quoted (from Scripture) THE SAME CHAPTER!!! Right here...and I Quote MYSELF!!

That is Scripture Mr......"HIS Witness" .................
UHH...........

DUHHHHH............

But you say that "he gave a Scripture" that we won't "deal" with????

You've diluded yourself....I place you in the same category as Icon........not worth responding to...
This isn't your ministry, you can't debate, you can't exchange ideas, you can't learn..
Drive a bus, give your money, show up to "Church work day"....but don't put yourself on record, because you now sound as....well....."Iconesque"...as Icon himself does.

All your bluster and you still cannot respond biblically:laugh:the verses you quote here do not address the issue raised in vs 23.and 5:12....:wavey:

His Witness noticed it right away...he weeded through your nonsense and called you on it.

Everything you just said was non-sense...it didn't make sense, it was rambling and irrelevant...you prove your point not one whit. I'm sorry I have to say it, but you don't BELONG on a "debate" board....you don't know how to engage arguments...you simply don't know how to "debate". You can't exchange ideas.

This is a non response...as you and Benjamin like to discuss...a red-herring:laugh: because you cannot answer the verses offered...all of these "objections" are no more than a classic logic fallacy.

I do not belong here when I post what you have no answer for:wavey:
Get well soon Hos!

 

[Iconoclast]

All that passage says is all who can sin have. Sin is the personal and conscious violation of Gods law

No...that is not all that is teaches at all.If and when you see the truth here...you will come around. You are completely ignoring what was presented which you are free to do, but you will remain in error.

 

[Iconoclast]

at least he gave you a scripture that you refuse to deal with -- all you know to do is bash him to make yourself look good :-(

ALL have sinned means ALL of mankind have sinned is the past tense so deal with the scripture he gave please ???

HW,

You have posted correctly here.All the attack and jumping up and down offered no answer at all...because they cannot answer.The best they try is to ignore the All Sinned.....

They want to talk only of those who sin by their own experience[which is true also....but does not answer to what has been posted:thumbsup:

here is another example from later on this thread:

All that passage says is all who can sin have. Sin is the personal and conscious violation of Gods law

:wavey:

 

[webdog]

No...that is not all that is teaches at all.If and when you see the truth here...you will come around. You are completely ignoring what was presented which you are free to do, but you will remain in error.

Not quite. I've considered that view, even held to it at one point. Just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it so, nor those who reject your view rejecting truth. I would think at your age you should have learned that distinction at some point. That text says what it says, period. You are reading your (or your favorite preachers) interpretation into it.

Lets apply your logic by substituting sinned with skated. "All have skated and fallen on the ice" . You mean to tell me you would filter that through the lens of the first person whoever skated, and not take such a simple statement at face value to mean what it says?

 

[Aaron]

Finally someone who admits all infants are in hell. At least Error'in is consistent.

I said no such thing.

 

[webdog]

HW,

You have posted correctly here.All the attack and jumping up and down offered no answer at all...because they cannot answer.The best they try is to ignore the All Sinned.....

They want to talk only of those who sin by their own experience[which is true also....but does not answer to what has been posted:thumbsup:

here is another example from later on this thread:

:wavey:

Its funny I don't see you guys using James 1:15 as one of your proof texts.

 

[webdog]

I said no such thing.

Its the only conclusion other than the popular special extrabiblical salvation of babies the Bible just doesn't tell us about...or the comical science fiction element of a baby exercising faith.

 

[salzer mtn]

Out of curiosity, do you people that deny the doctrines of Gods sovereign grace believe also in losing your salvation ? IMO if a person believed it took man's free will for God to save him, it would also take man's free will for God to keep him. It's either of Gods soveriegn grace from start to finish or works from start to finish.

 

[Aaron]

Its the only conclusion other than the popular special extrabiblical salvation of babies the Boble just doesn't tell us about...or the comical science fiction element of a baby exercising faith.

It's the only conclusion from your carnal notions of faith, yes, but not the faith of which we're told in the Scriptures.

 

[webdog]

Out of curiosity, do you people that deny the doctrines of Gods sovereign grace believe also in losing your salvation ? IMO if a person believed it took man's free will for God to save him, it would also take man's free will for God to keep him. It's either of Gods soveriegn grace from start to finish or works from start to finish.

Question begging. Have you stopped abusing your children yet, and did that come as a result of therapy or just a change of heart?

Your doctrine does not hold the copyright on either sovereign or grace.

 

[webdog]

It's the only conclusion from your carnal notions of faith, yes, but not the faith of which we're told in the Scriptures.

Got it. Your is the science fiction view then. Its hardly carnal to believe how the Bible describes faith as coming by hearing, and that by the Word pf God. If anything the mysterious science fiction umbilical cord faith must be the carnal view.