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Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

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Aaron

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I grant one must have a reading comprehension level greater than that of a third-grader to effectively interact with me, but I will try again.

Look back at what I said: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function: i.e. operation.

Or, were you trying to argue that faith is a body part? Based on the fancies you've asserted over the years, it's impossible to rule that out.
 

saturneptune

New Member
I grant one must have a reading comprehension level greater than that of a third-grader to effectively interact with me, but I will try again.

Look back at what I said: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function: i.e. operation.

Or, were you trying to argue that faith is a body part? Based on the fancies you've asserted over the years, it's impossible to rule that out.
Two questions, do you ever make a post that addresses the thread, and two do you ever make a comment in a civil manner without an insult added?

No doubt your avatar Moses always used insults to impart the Word of God.
 

percho

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Concerning the innocent and infants and all others also.

Was Jesus of Nazareth innocent? Was Jesus of Nazareth flesh and blood?

Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin.
Rom. 3:19 that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. --- Yes I am aware I only quoted parts of the verses. All are guilty, there are none innocent but one and even he paid the price.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Concerning the innocent, the one and only innocent, Jesus of Nazareth.

Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:24

What kind of pains, pangs were those that did not come concerning Jesus? What are these pains, pangs related to. Where was this death? See Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell (Sheol, Hades) gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Isa. 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

This is speaking of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth from Hades. Born again the chief cornerstone that had been rejected the first stone of Zion to be laid, the head of the church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.

The righteous God will take care of the not so innocent infants.

Don't worry, be happy!

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) (death) shall not prevail against it. (her)

For the OP Yes all were condemned by God, except the lamb slain from the foundation of the world for whom the promise of God, who can not lie, was made.
 
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percho

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I grant one must have a reading comprehension level greater than that of a third-grader to effectively interact with me, but I will try again.

Look back at what I said: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function: i.e. operation.

Or, were you trying to argue that faith is a body part? Based on the fancies you've asserted over the years, it's impossible to rule that out.

You are right Arron. The faith that will save those kids, required right at seventy two hours.
 

HisWitness

New Member
Got it. Your is the science fiction view then. Its hardly carnal to believe how the Bible describes faith as coming by hearing, and that by the Word pf God. If anything the mysterious science fiction umbilical cord faith must be the carnal view.

if you would do a word study on the word HEARING in that verse you would find it not talking about hearing with the physical ear but HEARING with the spiritual ear--Let him that hath an ear to hear---for some did not have a spiritual ear to hear and nonetheless they did not hear :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

HisWitness

New Member
They won't because it simply isn't THERE...There is NO way to assume a genetic passing of Adam's guilt in that passage unless you already pre-suppose it to be true. Because the Scriptures don't (strictly-speaking)....what's the word???...SAY any such thing...Yes, everyone sinned and at a definable point in time, and subsequently they became "sinners"....tell us something we DON'T know:sleep:

your problem is that you cant grasp sinning doesn't make you a Sinner---BUT you sin because you are already a SINNER before you even sin--therefore you will sin because that's who you are :thumbsup::thumbsup:

That's why men must be born again :jesus:
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
David son was innocent and paid for the sins of David. David knew he died physically he prayed without ceasing for him until he died. He knew when God did take him where he would be just like us when our infants die. When he died no more mourning why, because David not like some uninformed people should know where he ended up. We can't talk our way out of it, David's word was clear about his son, some will though.

We are condemned we are all going to die physically. We are not self sustaining from the womb, we depend on outside sources like food to live, that does not come from our self. We sacrifice something so we can live. We are already condemned we are going to die physically. We Spiritually are going to die and are dead, because it needs food and it only comes from the word of God for us the word of God that came from Jesus Christ. We must eat Christ His flesh, and drink His blood to live, that is the word He Spoke and the life He lived, we must eat every morsel to live Spiritually.

Christ has done the work we have to stop working to enter His rest that is what is left to do, you have to start working to have to enter rest if not you are already in the rest. How can an infant work? What work has infant's started?

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Hebrews 4 :
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

We are not acquitted from a physical death, that we have already have been condemned.

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
 
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Winman

Active Member
They won't because it simply isn't THERE...There is NO way to assume a genetic passing of Adam's guilt in that passage unless you already pre-suppose it to be true. Because the Scriptures don't (strictly-speaking)....what's the word???...SAY any such thing...Yes, everyone sinned and at a definable point in time, and subsequently they became "sinners"....tell us something we DON'T know:sleep:

Yep, not one of the many various versions of scripture was willing to interpret Romans 3:23 to say all sinned "in Adam" at one point in time as Icon and others insist.

Further, Paul himself refutes this just a little later on in Romans 9:11:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

If Paul was attempting to teach that all men sinned in Adam in Romans 3:23, why would Paul contradict this and tell us that Esau and Jacob had done no evil while they were alive in their mother's womb? If Romans 3:23 is truly teaching all men have sinned in Adam, then Esau and Jacob would be guilty (or at least a partaker) in this sin. Paul refutes and contradicts this view saying they had not done any evil.

So, this is just an invention of man. Of course Icon will hold to it, because without Original Sin Calvinism doesn't have a leg to stand on. He can't have that.
 
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Benjamin

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your problem is that you cant grasp sinning doesn't make you a Sinner---BUT you sin because you are already a SINNER before you even sin--therefore you will sin because that's who you are :thumbsup::thumbsup:

That's why men must be born again :jesus:

Ahh, you can't miss the target until you take the shot. ;)
 

Aaron

Member
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you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function (i.e. operation)
I need to clarify: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function (i.e. operation) of the brain, or any part of the body.

Apologies, it was late last night.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Two questions, do you ever make a post that addresses the thread
Always, but like I said, one needs a certain degree of expertise in reading English.
and two do you ever make a comment in a civil manner without an insult added?
I tend to answer in the manners shown me, especially when one asserts a way of entering heaven other than through the Door.
 

salzer mtn

Well-Known Member
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Acts 4-13 Now when they (Pharisees) saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. St. John 9:34 They (Phaisees) answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and doest thou teach us ? and they cast him out. Prov 16:18-19 Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud. Prov 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and a forward mouth, do i hate. Heavenly Father if knowledge makes me to have a spirit of a Pharisee, please Lord keep me from knowledge that i might not harbour pride in my heart and exalt myself above my fellow man, amen.
 

webdog

Active Member
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if you would do a word study on the word HEARING in that verse you would find it not talking about hearing with the physical ear but HEARING with the spiritual ear--Let him that hath an ear to hear---for some did not have a spiritual ear to hear and nonetheless they did not hear :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Actually, your study would have brought you to the fact hearing simply means understanding.
 

webdog

Active Member
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your problem is that you cant grasp sinning doesn't make you a Sinner---BUT you sin because you are already a SINNER before you even sin--therefore you will sin because that's who you are :thumbsup::thumbsup:

That's why men must be born again :jesus:
So basically words do not have meanings, or we can redefine certain phrases to make it fit doctrine. Try replacing 'sinner' with murderer, rapist, homosexual. Your reasoning is the very reasoning used by the homosexual community.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I grant one must have a reading comprehension level greater than that of a third-grader to effectively interact with me, but I will try again.

Look back at what I said: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function: i.e. operation.

Or, were you trying to argue that faith is a body part? Based on the fancies you've asserted over the years, it's impossible to rule that out.

What ever you do, don't burn out your generator belt thinking how smart you are.
MB
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I grant one must have a reading comprehension level greater than that of a third-grader to effectively interact with me, but I will try again.

Look back at what I said: you'll never get it until you stop thinking of faith as a function: i.e. operation.

Or, were you trying to argue that faith is a body part? Based on the fancies you've asserted over the years, it's impossible to rule that out.

This is the issue.

Faith is not something that you conjure up or bring to pass.

It is something that happens to you. This is true of any kind of faith.

I went to bed last night and slept soundly because I have faith in gravity. I am not worried that the centripetal force of the spinning of the planet is going to hurl me and mine into outer space.

I did not CHOOSE to put trust in gravity. Gravity revealed itself to me repeatedly and constantly until I HAD NO CHOICE BUT to believe in it.

I cannot choose NOT to believe in it.

Faith is not a funcition you perform. It is something that happens to you.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
What ever you do, don't burn out your generator belt thinking how smart you are.
MB

You either.

And how is this post remotely helpful?

Where is your argument??

This is nothing but an insult hurled at someone for saying something you don't like.

When you do what you criticize while criticizing it you are lower than what you criticize.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
So basically words do not have meanings, or we can redefine certain phrases to make it fit doctrine. Try replacing 'sinner' with murderer, rapist, homosexual. Your reasoning is the very reasoning used by the homosexual community.

So when does one become a homosexual?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Yep, not one of the many various versions of scripture was willing to interpret Romans 3:23 to say all sinned "in Adam" at one point in time as Icon and others insist.

Further, Paul himself refutes this just a little later on in Romans 9:11:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

If Paul was attempting to teach that all men sinned in Adam in Romans 3:23, why would Paul contradict this and tell us that Esau and Jacob had done no evil while they were alive in their mother's womb? If Romans 3:23 is truly teaching all men have sinned in Adam, then Esau and Jacob would be guilty (or at least a partaker) in this sin. Paul refutes and contradicts this view saying they had not done any evil.

So, this is just an invention of man. Of course Icon will hold to it, because without Original Sin Calvinism doesn't have a leg to stand on. He can't have that.

This is the terrible hermeneutics I keep talking about.

He quotes a verse claiming it refutes the doctrine of original sin when the verse doesn't even ADDRESS the doctrine- but he doesn't know enough about either the verse or the doctrine to understand that.

Saying that Esau had not DONE evil proves nothing.

EVERYBODY agrees with that.

Saying that that proves he was NOT evil- not conceived in iniquity- is silly.

It does not follow.

A cobra is a natural born killer. A baby cobra may not have killed a single living thing yet, but killing is its NATURE.

It is not a killer because it has killed, it kills because it is a killer.

If I were to say that killing was not the nature of that snake before it was born simply because it has not yet killed- I would be making a very silly statement.

Why has it not killed? It lacks the opportunity.

Why does it kill as soon as it has strength and opportunity? Becaause killing is its nature.

The same is true with sin and born sinners.
 
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