Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[convicted1]

here again--your line of thinking is only going to lead to the WORKS of man instead of the GRACE of God friend---its either Grace or Works--God held ALL under Condemnation so that he might have MERCY upon ALL-that's grace.

Instead of finger pointing and blaming, produce the scriptures you're clammouring about. Come man, bring'em.....

 

[Iconoclast]

Verses where it explicitly states we sinned in Adam, please. Show, with scripture(s) where Adam's sin was passed down to us. It said that concerning death being passed, but Adam's sin being passed down to us?

You might have missed this Willis:
The
root
of man’s sinfulness is his corporate identification with Adam’s sin,
for “all have sinned,” v. 23a.
(a)
A more precise translation here reads, “For all sinned,” emphasizing the
aorist tense, which lumps together all of mankind into a single class.
Furthermore, in contrast with the present tense of, “and are falling
short of the glory of God,” there is strong inference here that man as a
corporate race is perceived as having sinned from the beginning with
Adam (cf. 5:12 where “sin” is usedin the same aoristic manner).
1

Have sinned (ἥμαρτον)

Aorist tense: sinned, looking back to a thing definitely past - the historic occurrence of sin.

This reconciliation or atonement is ours in Christ in the same way sin, condemnation, and death became ours in Adam (implied). Hence, Paul uses Adam as a model, type, or a pattern of Christ [v. 14, last part]. The reason why Adam’s sin brought universal death is “because all sinned” in Adam, our father and representative, and not like Adam, our personal sins.

Note: In his commentary on Romans, John Murray gives five reasons why Paul meant in Adam and not like Adam:

Historically, not all die because they sinned like Adam. For example, babies have no personal sins, yet they die.

The use of the aorist tense implies a once-for-all act in the past. Compare this with Romans 3:23 (“all sinned,” i.e., in the past, also in the aorist tense, and “all are coming short of God’s glory” [i.e., sinning personally], in the present continuous tense).

In verses 13 and 14 (immediate context), the people who lived from Adam to Moses were dying (i.e., before God gave mankind His law as a legal code), even though their sins were unlike Adam’s deliberate transgression of a law [Gen. 2:16,17].

In verses 15-18 (unit context) Paul makes it clear that all men are judged, condemned, and die because of Adam’s sin, with no mention of their personal sins.

Paul is using Adam as a pattern or a type of Christ in Romans 5:12-21 [v. 14b]. If we insist that all die because we all sinned personally like Adam; for this analogy to fit Christ, we would have to teach that all live because all have obeyed personally like Christ. Not only is this the very opposite of Paul’s thought, but we would be guilty of making him teach legalism, something he fought against vehemently.





Wesley's Notes

3:23 For all have sinned - In Adam, and in their own persons; by a sinful nature, sinful tempers, and sinful actions. And are fallen short of the glory of God - The supreme end of man; short of his image on earth, and the enjoyment of him in heaven.


The continuous present tense here indicates that man sins on a day by
day basis and not merely occasionally. His sinning is an inevitable result
of sin as a principle. Because he is a child of Adam, he
will sin, though he does so agreeably. Man can only walk along a straight line in a crooked manner; he staggers on and on as if intoxicated, and that being under the influence of sin.


To sin is to act contrary to the will and law of God. Everybody is born into Adam and thus all sinned for when he sinned, for he acted as the representative for all his descendants. Men are not only sinners by nature, but are also sinners by practice and thus continually fall short (see below), in committing sin themselves. Thus there is a universal need for the gospel, which is thankfully mercifully universally available!

The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20) Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense

'transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that...

Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

Leon Morris writes that...

The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means...

looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin.

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

 

[HisWitness]

Psa. 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Now, HW, if Psa 51:5 should be taken literal, then so should verse 7. If so, then hyssop would have cleansed David, too.

You need to brush up on the differences between figurative and literal languages....it would help you immensely.....

still your line of thinking on this topic is only leading to WORKS-- another thing to think about is if DEATH was passed upon ALL mankind through Adam(which it was)then other scriptures says that the Soul that sins
shall DIE--now a question to you is that the Men are already going to DIE because of Adams sin--so therefore they have sinned already in Adam--how can Death be passed but men do not die if they haven't sinned already ? SELAH(think about that)

 

[convicted1]

It really does not matter.

According to the word of God the only man who was ever born of woman and was innocent, died because the first man created in the image of God,
Sinned.

I agree that Jesus was, is, and always will be sinless. Yet, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. So then, if sin is passed down through the flesh, how do you explain Jesus being sinless flesh? The Catholics use the "immaculate conception", that Mary was sinless, but yet she had to offer a sin sacrifice for herself.

 

[percho]

I'm going to start a new thread concerning the already condemned.

One of my lot of read no response threads.

 

[convicted1]

so whats the point of this ?

There's a difference betwixt figurative and literal sayings. David used the figurative language for Psalms 51:5 and 51:7. If you took both literal, you're going to miss the correct way to rightly divide the Word of truth. If you take Psalms 51:5 literally, then you have to take verse 7 the same way....and when you do, hyssop could cleanse David.

 

[webdog]

That is correct.They All sinned in Adam unlike your skating analogy.Paul did not use your analogy...he used the fall.:thumbs:

You are reading that into the text as it says no such thing. He used the fall...the irony is he used it to explain how we die spiritually. His example is Adam. He transgressed God's law, he died as a result, just like every other human since.

 

[webdog]

so whats the point of this ?

You really have to ask?

 

[Iconoclast]

You are reading that into the text as it says no such thing. He used the fall...the irony is he used it to explain how we die spiritually. His example is Adam. He transgressed God's law, he died as a result, just like every other human since.

WEBDOG,

Paul is using Adam as a TYPE.....tupos.....of Christ.
he explains that all mankind who exist at anytime,jew and gentile...sinned in Adam ,died in Adam....

any sinner IN Christ...is the same way is made alive...it is both physical,and spiritual.....I think you are over thinking it.


Got to drive now.....more later.
In the chapters leading up to this he explains we are all guilty. All sinned.

In chapter 5...he magnifies the fall and identifies it as that Point in time past,where All sinned. and how...IN ADAM

He them magnifies the cross as that point in time where All who are in Christ are redeemed.

 

[HisWitness]

You really have to ask?

DEATH passed upon ALL men through Adam--scripture says that the Soul that Sins will DIE(DEATH)so tell me how can DEATH already be passed upon ALL men(which it is) and them not having sinned in Adam?? The SOUL that Sins shall DIE(DEATH) If DEATH was passed to ALL men then ALL men according to scripture MUST have SINNED through Adam ??

 

[convicted1]

You might have missed this Willis:
The
root
of man’s sinfulness is his corporate identification with Adam’s sin,
for “all have sinned,” v. 23a.
(a)
A more precise translation here reads, “For all sinned,” emphasizing the
aorist tense, which lumps together all of mankind into a single class.
Furthermore, in contrast with the present tense of, “and are falling
short of the glory of God,” there is strong inference here that man as a
corporate race is perceived as having sinned from the beginning with
Adam (cf. 5:12 where “sin” is usedin the same aoristic manner).
1

Have sinned (ἥμαρτον)

Aorist tense: sinned, looking back to a thing definitely past - the historic occurrence of sin.

This reconciliation or atonement is ours in Christ in the same way sin, condemnation, and death became ours in Adam (implied). Hence, Paul uses Adam as a model, type, or a pattern of Christ [v. 14, last part]. The reason why Adam’s sin brought universal death is “because all sinned” in Adam, our father and representative, and not like Adam, our personal sins.

Note: In his commentary on Romans, John Murray gives five reasons why Paul meant in Adam and not like Adam:

Historically, not all die because they sinned like Adam. For example, babies have no personal sins, yet they die.

The use of the aorist tense implies a once-for-all act in the past. Compare this with Romans 3:23 (“all sinned,” i.e., in the past, also in the aorist tense, and “all are coming short of God’s glory” [i.e., sinning personally], in the present continuous tense).

In verses 13 and 14 (immediate context), the people who lived from Adam to Moses were dying (i.e., before God gave mankind His law as a legal code), even though their sins were unlike Adam’s deliberate transgression of a law [Gen. 2:16,17].

In verses 15-18 (unit context) Paul makes it clear that all men are judged, condemned, and die because of Adam’s sin, with no mention of their personal sins.

Paul is using Adam as a pattern or a type of Christ in Romans 5:12-21 [v. 14b]. If we insist that all die because we all sinned personally like Adam; for this analogy to fit Christ, we would have to teach that all live because all have obeyed personally like Christ. Not only is this the very opposite of Paul’s thought, but we would be guilty of making him teach legalism, something he fought against vehemently.





Wesley's Notes

3:23 For all have sinned - In Adam, and in their own persons; by a sinful nature, sinful tempers, and sinful actions. And are fallen short of the glory of God - The supreme end of man; short of his image on earth, and the enjoyment of him in heaven.


The continuous present tense here indicates that man sins on a day by
day basis and not merely occasionally. His sinning is an inevitable result
of sin as a principle. Because he is a child of Adam, he
will sin, though he does so agreeably. Man can only walk along a straight line in a crooked manner; he staggers on and on as if intoxicated, and that being under the influence of sin.


To sin is to act contrary to the will and law of God. Everybody is born into Adam and thus all sinned for when he sinned, for he acted as the representative for all his descendants. Men are not only sinners by nature, but are also sinners by practice and thus continually fall short (see below), in committing sin themselves. Thus there is a universal need for the gospel, which is thankfully mercifully universally available!

The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20) Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense

'transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that...

Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

Leon Morris writes that...

The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means...

looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin.

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

Where did you get the first part of this post? I want to read it for myself.

I see you used Wesley, Vincent, McDonald and Morris, but please post one scripture that backs your position.

 

[percho]

I agree that Jesus was, is, and always will be sinless. Yet, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. So then, if sin is passed down through the flesh, how do you explain Jesus being sinless flesh? The Catholics use the "immaculate conception", that Mary was sinless, but yet she had to offer a sin sacrifice for herself.

Convicted1, I am not sure about all. I believe there more to sex than we want to consider. I believe only begotten Son has to do with only begotten of woman by Spirit the God. I say that for those who have been given the Spirit of adoption are begotten as children of God.

Mary when the seed and or ovum of her was generated to bring forth the man child Jesus, the Son of God was a virgin for a reason. This is the woman taken from the man created in the image of God.

I do not believe Adam was the crown of the creation of God. The Hebrews 2 passage concerning, what is man, clears it up in that man in the image of Adam we see not yet all things put under him, but the man to come in the image of the resurrected last Adam will have all things put under him.

I started a new thread which could be relative yet that thread is only questions seeking answers of which I do not know that I have the answers to.

What I do know is Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Nothing happened without the foreknowledge of God. I believe Adam was going to sin.

God through a being created in his image was going to destroy something evil that was here before God created that being in his image.

The lamb was not ordained to die for something that did not exist before the foundation of the world. This present system.

 

[HisWitness]

Instead of finger pointing and blaming, produce the scriptures you're clammouring about. Come man, bring'em.....

the wages of Sin is DEATH(passed upon all through adam)

how can DEATH be passed upon ALL men through adam and ALL men not Sinning through Adam??

AGAIN--the Soul that Sins shall DIE(DEATH)
The wages of SIN is DEATH

Sin is whatsbrings the DEATH--SO ALL men MUST have Sinned through Adam according to scripture :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[webdog]

the wages of Sin is DEATH(passed upon all through adam)

how can DEATH be passed upon ALL men through adam and ALL men not Sinning through Adam??

AGAIN--the Soul that Sins shall DIE(DEATH)
The wages of SIN is DEATH

Sin is whatsbrings the DEATH--SO ALL men MUST have Sinned through Adam according to scripture :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Two words, Jesus Christ. He died, are you claiming He was born a sinner?

 

[Amy.G]

Two words, Jesus Christ. He died, are you claiming He was born a sinner?

No, but Jesus died as a result of OUR sin. We die as a result of Adam's sin.

 

[convicted1]

the wages of Sin is DEATH(passed upon all through adam)

how can DEATH be passed upon ALL men through adam and ALL men not Sinning through Adam??

AGAIN--the Soul that Sins shall DIE(DEATH)
The wages of SIN is DEATH

Sin is whatsbrings the DEATH--SO ALL men MUST have Sinned through Adam according to scripture :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Correct. Jesus died and condemned sin in the flesh. We die physically because of Adam. His flesh was what was passed to us, not his sin. We die physically because of Adam, we die spiritually when we knowingly and willingly sin against God. Sin is transgressing God's Laws. What sin does a zygote perform in the womb?

 

[convicted1]

No, but Jesus died as a result of OUR sin. We die as a result of Adam's sin.

Agreed. But Adam's sin wasn't passed unto us, but his death was. To die "in Adam" is referring to our flesh, and not our soul. His soul, or any portion of it, wasn't passed down to us.

 

[webdog]

No, but Jesus died as a result of OUR sin. We die as a result of Adam's sin.

He still would have died without having our sin placed on Him. He was human in ever way we are...yet never sinned.

 

[convicted1]

Two words, Jesus Christ. He died, are you claiming He was born a sinner?

gonna be waiting a while for a response to this good post...


ushering in the "cricket sounds"

 

[Winman]

DEATH passed upon ALL men through Adam--scripture says that the Soul that Sins will DIE(DEATH)so tell me how can DEATH already be passed upon ALL men(which it is) and them not having sinned in Adam?? The SOUL that Sins shall DIE(DEATH) If DEATH was passed to ALL men then ALL men according to scripture MUST have SINNED through Adam ??

Romans 5:12 does not say death passed upon all men "through" Adam. You are adding to the word of God. Scripture says no such thing.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse does not even contain the word "through" that is your invention. It says that by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin. It then says death passed upon all men FOR THAT(because) all have sinned.

Augustine had a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" which he interpreted to mean in Adam. The Eastern church which used only Greek texts absolutely disagreed with Augustine's interpretation and said the verse should rightly say "because of" or "for that" all have sinned, showing death passed on all men because all men have personally sinned. This is an historical fact you can easily look up if you sincerely want to know the truth.

Once you get off track with verse 12, you will necessarily misinterpret all the following verses.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 is not saying that all men were unconditionally made sinners by Adam's sin. In fact, it is not saying all men, but many.

But if you believe all men were unconditionally made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then you have to interpret the second half of the verse EXACTLY the same (because that is the technique Paul is using) and you would have to believe all men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience.

This is why your interpretation cannot be correct.

The correct way to interpret this verse is to realize that Paul is saying men who conditionally sin as Adam did are made sinners, and those who conditionally believe as Jesus did are made righteous.

Men are made sinners by following in Adam's ways, just as many men were made communists by following in Karl Marx's ways, or many men were made evolutionists by following Charles Darwin's beliefs and ways.

And men are made righteous by following in Jesus's way and trusting God, as Jesus trusted God when he willingly allowed himself to die on the cross, commending his spirit into his Father's hands.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

To "commend" means to entrust. And we are imputed righteous conditionally when we entrust our soul to Jesus as Jesus entrusted himself to his Father.

You cannot apply sin unconditionally to all men and then apply righteousness conditionally in this passage.That would completely violate the technique Paul is using. Paul is treating each half of each verse EQUALLY in these verses.