Are all already condemned by God, or ONLY after rejecting Christ?

[Winman]

Agreed. But Adam's sin wasn't passed unto us, but his death was. To die "in Adam" is referring to our flesh, and not our soul. His soul, or any portion of it, wasn't passed down to us.

Exactly, the scriptures say both our spirit and soul come from God. And God does not make evil spirits or souls.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.

We do inherit our corrupt body from our parents, but our spirit and soul come from God. To say man is born with an evil spirit or soul is to charge God with creating evil.

 

[convicted1]

Exactly, the scriptures say both our spirit and soul come from God. And God does not make evil spirits or souls.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.

We do inherit our corrupt body from our parents, but our spirit and soul come from God. To say man is born with an evil spirit or soul is to charge God with creating evil.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

Concerning our body and our natural spirits (or souls if you prefer), the spirit of man: It is all from Adam, created on the Sixth Day, corrupted in Adam

Concerning Christ and His death, He was made to be sin . . .

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Romans 5:12 does not say death passed upon all men "through" Adam. You are adding to the word of God. Scripture says no such thing.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse does not even contain the word "through" that is your invention. It says that by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin. It then says death passed upon all men FOR THAT(because) all have sinned.

Augustine had a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" which he interpreted to mean in Adam. The Eastern church which used only Greek texts absolutely disagreed with Augustine's interpretation and said the verse should rightly say "because of" or "for that" all have sinned, showing death passed on all men because all men have personally sinned. This is an historical fact you can easily look up if you sincerely want to know the truth.

Once you get off track with verse 12, you will necessarily misinterpret all the following verses.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 is not saying that all men were unconditionally made sinners by Adam's sin. In fact, it is not saying all men, but many.

But if you believe all men were unconditionally made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then you have to interpret the second half of the verse EXACTLY the same (because that is the technique Paul is using) and you would have to believe all men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience.

This is why your interpretation cannot be correct.

The correct way to interpret this verse is to realize that Paul is saying men who conditionally sin as Adam did are made sinners, and those who conditionally believe as Jesus did are made righteous.

Men are made sinners by following in Adam's ways, just as many men were made communists by following in Karl Marx's ways, or many men were made evolutionists by following Charles Darwin's beliefs and ways.

And men are made righteous by following in Jesus's way and trusting God, as Jesus trusted God when he willingly allowed himself to die on the cross, commending his spirit into his Father's hands.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

To "commend" means to entrust. And we are imputed righteous conditionally when we entrust our soul to Jesus as Jesus entrusted himself to his Father.

You cannot apply sin unconditionally to all men and then apply righteousness conditionally in this passage.That would completely violate the technique Paul is using. Paul is treating each half of each verse EQUALLY in these verses.

See the part I bolded: And that is why the Eastern Church escaped the poisonous and false teaching that has infected all of Western Christianity through Augustine. The Eastern Church maintained the apostolic teaching on sin and original sin.

 

[percho]

He still would have died without having our sin placed on Him. He was human in ever way we are...yet never sinned.

I agree he would have died because Adam brought death to men.

However he gave his life. He died for our sin.

From a previous post of mine:
The sin of Adam separated him from God and initiated death which comes in the flesh to the person, soul. That is why it stated as, in dying thou shall surly die or as Young put it, "dying thou dost die." Christ died in the flesh. When the sin of the world fell upon him Christ was separated from his Father and he cried out My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me, into thy hands I commend my spirit and he died in the flesh. He gave his life. Jesus the Christ was dead. The death, the sin of Adam brought upon all men.

 

[percho]

Correct. Jesus died and condemned sin in the flesh. We die physically because of Adam. His flesh was what was passed to us, not his sin. We die physically because of Adam, we die spiritually when we knowingly and willingly sin against God. Sin is transgressing God's Laws. What sin does a zygote perform in the womb?

Would you agree with me that when God the Father laid the sin of the world on Jesus his Son, Jesus cried out My God, My God why have you forsaken me, Father into your hands I commend my spirit (life) and spiritually and physically Jesus breathed his last breath. Jesus the person died for our sins.

Gal.1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

How long was the person, Jesus the Son dead, separated from the Father who raised him from the dead?

 

[Luke2427]

Not relevant to this discussion. I don't know either, none of us do.

You should know. This is at the core of your argument.

Is one a homosexual five minutes before he commits the act, while he commits it, afterwards or long before?

Which option best represents your position on the matter.

I contend that one is a homosexual at least a while before he commits his first sinful act.

I contend that in like manner one is a sinner BEFORE he sins.

A murderer is a murderer at heart BEFORE he commits his first murder.

 

[webdog]

You should know. This is at the core of your argument.p

Is one a homosexual five minutes before he commits the act, while he commits it, afterwards or long before?

Which option best represents your position on the matter.

I contend that one is a homosexual at least a while before he commits his first sinful act.

I contend that in like manner one is a sinner BEFORE he sins.

A murderer is a murderer at heart BEFORE he commits his first murder.

A homosexual is one who commits such acts. Being tempted to commit the acts doesn't make one a homosexual. I know people saved from that lifestyle who still struggle with temptation.

 

[Aaron]

A homosexual is one who commits such acts. Being tempted to commit the acts doesn't make one a homosexual. I know people saved from that lifestyle who still struggle with temptation.

A homosexual is one who is one in his heart, i.e. the apetite.

 

[HisWitness]

Two words, Jesus Christ. He died, are you claiming He was born a sinner?

Jesus was not born through adam but God

 

[Luke2427]

A homosexual is one who commits such acts. Being tempted to commit the acts doesn't make one a homosexual. I know people saved from that lifestyle who still struggle with temptation.

So then a man becomes a homosexual the moment he commits the sin, right?

When he is done committing the sin is he still a homosexual?

Is he only a homosexual WHILE he is committing the sin?

Does one act brand him for life?

Do you see the point?

You are what you are in your HEART before you ever do what you do with your hands.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus was not born through adam but God

I don't disagree with this one iota, but His flesh still came from Mary, who came from the lineage of David, and thusly, Isaac(He came from Judah's lineage, to be more precise), and she had a sin nature. How does this sin nature escape Jesus if He was tempted in all points the same as we. Listen, Jesus' flesh was sinless, pristine, immaculate, perfect, never with one sin(except when the sin of the world was placed upon Him), so then how did it circumvent Him, if sin is passed down from Adam?

 

[Amy.G]

You are what you are in your HEART before you ever do what you do with your hands.

Yes!

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[Revmitchell]

Mat_5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

:thumbs::thumbs::applause:

No Brother Icon, it doesn't say we sinned it Adam. It doesn't even say we died in Adam. It states that in Adam, all will die. Adam's sin ushered in the "sentence of death" upon every living creature. But Adam's sin didn't cause me to be born an active sinner, yet alone, created in the womb.

The same Apostle repeats this notion in:
1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
And Also in the same book in chapter 8 Notice how Paul uses the term "First-fruits" in the same way in both Romans and I Corinthians.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
The whole of creation here is referred to, and it is because the entire creation suffers DEATH...not SINFULNESS.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

All we need to do is read the Scriptures WHOLE and let them explain THEMSELVES to us. Romans chpter 5 is NOT the only place Paul talks about this.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

A homosexual is one who commits such acts. Being tempted to commit the acts doesn't make one a homosexual. I know people saved from that lifestyle who still struggle with temptation.

:thumbs::applause:
Correct: I have the profound joy of working at a prison where homo-sexual acts are commonplace. The same person may have NEVER considered such acts until they arrive, and often (if they get out) never repeat the same actions again...
It's something they DO ....and there's even a disciplinary code for it:
(205) :type:
They aren't "Homosexuals".....they are perverted men who choose to satiate their lusts in perverse ways:
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

 

[webdog]

Yes!

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The key is proceed. From the heart these things are done, they are not wired into the heart. The heart means simply self serving, the only command in the satanist bible, "do what thou wilt"

 

[webdog]

Mat_5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

lusting is a sinful action. Tempted to lust is not.

 

[webdog]

So then a man becomes a homosexual the moment he commits the sin, right?

Depends on how you define 'become a homosexual'. He has committed a homo act.

When he is done committing the sin is he still a homosexual

It depends on how he proceeds from that point on.

Is he only a homosexual WHILE he is committing the sin?

By definition, yes. Christ also added when he lusts after another man.

Does one act brand him for life?

No. Does any one sin 'brand' any of us for life?

Do you see the point?

No

You are what you are in your HEART before you ever do what you do with your hands.

Sounds like the perfect excuse that the homosexuals use, 'oh well, I'm just made that way'. This line of thinking strips any accountability whatsoever.

 

[Aaron]

Boiled down, dawg's argument is either that no one is born corrupt, or that corruption is acceptable to God as long as no one acts upon his corruption.

To what does one compare this reasoning? It's almost like the political reasoning of Nancy Pelosi. Just too insane for words.