-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are their current forum members who would like to discuss the Sabbath?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
If you really want to discuss the Sabbath then you first need to read Hebrews 4:1-9 to see that the Sabbath is no longer a day of the week any more than the day of atonement is a day in the month or year. Jesus fulfilled the whole law including the Sabbath law. So let's see if anyone here knows what and who the Sabbath really is. Any takers?
GE:
Carico, I thank you for your invitation! I would in all modesty accept. May God attend this conversation, and be the Chair.
It's so nice to be back on BB. I have thanked the Lord before for the opportunity BB gives Anyman to confess his faith in God and the Christian values dear to him. I want to thank BaptistBoard once again.
I have been thrown off so many forums since I last visited here, I feel quite dizzy .....
Carico:
".... you first need to read Hebrews 4:1-9 to see that the Sabbath is no longer a day of the week ...."
GE:
I have read the passage I cannot say how many times, and I must say, I cannot see how you have reached your conclusion.
Now I know I'm out of order because of my absence. But I think it will be better if we could start from scratch here. I ask your favour. So please explain to me - and us - how you have reached your conclusion, please?
Thank you.
GE
PS
This is how far some of my attempts at a discussion got on other 'forums' / 'boards' --- only to be told I am "bias" etc, and koebaai 'note': 'deleted'.
Last edited by a moderator:
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 4.
My view is the same as Carioco on this (I think)
Here is how I draw that from the Scripture:
This gives me a heads up..there is a rest, I must enter it, and I am to becareful not to fall short it.
Because there is a therefore here I want to know what is is there for:
Ok, so those who didn't enter in before didn't because of unbelief. So I need to becareful of believing something, but what?
Ok, so moving along with Heb 4, the believing part is the Gospel.
Ok, so that rest that remains for the people of God to enter, we do enter who believe the Gospel.
Ok, so now this rest which we enter by believing the Gospel is being referred back the Law of God and beginning of creation. In the time before He limited a day...and in the times now He limits a day. Then, as we know, the day was limited to the 7th. Now, the day is limited to "Today"
There remains a sabbeteros, Sabbath, to the people of God. The Old Covenant is abbrogated by the New. Under the New Covenant there IS A SABBATH for the people of God. Is it Sunday? Saturday still? No. It's Today.
Well then, how do I enter it "Today" ? If you hear His voice, do not harden your heart, but be beleiving in Him.
Don't follow the example of unbelieving Jews. But be believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and you enter HIS rest.
RB
My view is the same as Carioco on this (I think)
Here is how I draw that from the Scripture:
This gives me a heads up..there is a rest, I must enter it, and I am to becareful not to fall short it.
Because there is a therefore here I want to know what is is there for:
Ok, so those who didn't enter in before didn't because of unbelief. So I need to becareful of believing something, but what?
Ok, so moving along with Heb 4, the believing part is the Gospel.
Ok, so that rest that remains for the people of God to enter, we do enter who believe the Gospel.
Ok, so now this rest which we enter by believing the Gospel is being referred back the Law of God and beginning of creation. In the time before He limited a day...and in the times now He limits a day. Then, as we know, the day was limited to the 7th. Now, the day is limited to "Today"
There remains a sabbeteros, Sabbath, to the people of God. The Old Covenant is abbrogated by the New. Under the New Covenant there IS A SABBATH for the people of God. Is it Sunday? Saturday still? No. It's Today.
Well then, how do I enter it "Today" ? If you hear His voice, do not harden your heart, but be beleiving in Him.
Don't follow the example of unbelieving Jews. But be believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and you enter HIS rest.
RB
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. David does not say in Ps 95 above "someday in the future many CENTURIES FROM TODAY there will be a new covenant and THEN the saints should harden not their hearts - so that they may have rest".
2. IF the Ps 95 condition "TODAY if you harden not your hearts" meant that David was under the New Covenant - then there is NO CHANGE for today from the "TODAY" of people reading Ps 95 in David's day.
BTW I agree "Moses worked for Jesus"' because "ALL scripture is given by inspiriation from God" - "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God".
If "some" in David's day did not enter that rest due to unbelief (excluding David and all the Heb 11 saints of course) then TODAY we too may "not enter" if we also engage in unbelief.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
GE:
Certainly the 'rest'- 'katapausis' Heb4 is referring to, is the believer's "entering into the arms of Christ". But this 'rest'- 'katapausis' as certainly, is NOT "their Sabbath rest"- 'sabbatismos', "remaining to the People of God". On the contrary, it is SAID, the 'rest'- 'katapausis' is the REASON FOR, and WHY, "their Sabbath rest"- 'sabbatismos', is "remaining to the People of God". It no longer is because of the Law, but BECAUSE of "Jesus", who "HAD GIVEN THEM REST". And it is because of "HIM" - "Jesus" - "HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN".
GE:
A little more, on some technical aspects .....
You have given a very good definition of the 'rest' Hebrews throughout is written about, namely, Jesus Christ and HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT unto our salvation. Every time you read the word 'rest'- 'katapausis', you read of GOD TRIUMPHANT THROUGH RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD OF CHRIST. Eleven times with reference to the NAME OF 'JESUS'! Conclusion: "The Rest" is CHRIST and GOD, in Christ, WORKING AND AVAILING quote: "AS, GOD" (4:10) God in Christ Jesus is The Subject of the action. And God is The Subject by every metaphor of Predicate. A beautiful example is Jesus who has "entered into the holy .... through the veil" as an "Anchor of the soul" - "JESUS .... HE, having entered into HIS OWN rest", "FOR US" - in our stead; as our Representative, Mediator, and Surety. God in Christ The Subject.
But with the word 'sabbatismos', we do not have the word 'rest'- 'katapausis'. We do not even have the word 'sabbaton', which may CORRECTLY translate, 'Sabbath-Rest' which MAY be God, who may 'rest' his 'Sabbath Day'. Because 'sabbaton'- "Sabbath" is also NOT THAT "Rest" of God, spoken of in Hebrews as God's Resurrection-Triumph through and in and AS, Jesus Christ in Glory and Honour HIMSELF.
For in the word 'sabbatismos' we have something "LEFT AVAILABLE / mandatory / remaining: FOR / TO", not "FOR / TO", God; but "FOR / TO, the People OF God". "FOR / TO The People"- 'tohi laohi', Dative. "FOR / TO the People OF God"- 'tou Theou', Genitive. The 'Sabbath' therefore is not for God to keep here, but "for the People" to keep.
This thought is confirmed by the morphology of the word, 'sabbatismos'. It is not 'sabbaton' the Sabbath Day per se; it is the "-ism" of the Sabbath Day --- its CULTURE or "KEEPING". After God had done EVERYTHING UNTO THE ETERNAL REST FOR HIS PEOPLE and thereby created "The Body of Christ's Own" Col2:17 - "The People of God" in Hb4:9 - "there therefore remains valid for The People of God's KEEPING, the Sabbath Day."
GE:
Amen! In fact, Read God speaking an oath they shall not enter into his rest even in Genesis 3 UNTIL Jesus who had given them rest. The prohibition concerned all mankind until the Promised Rest of God would be accomplished in and by Jesus who had given them rest in these last days. I think we place restrictions to God's oath in chapter 4 which cannot be justified. Although the words of the Psalm is used, it doesn't say the Oath only applies to David's time. Why does the writer not mention the name of David or of Josua? Why, if periodical oaths of God are meant, why would the writer not have referred to MOSES in the first place? He refers to a general principle that the Sabbath awaited the True Rest of God - Jesus Christ - before it could go into PROPER observance or keeping by the People of God.
>"In reading the New Testament, we find that Jesus and his inspired apostles taught all the commandments of the Decalog, with the exception of the fourth commandment, the Sabbath law.
Consider the traffic light:
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/trafficlight.htm
>AT A GLANCE:
Police Officer William L. Potts of Detroit, Michigan, decided to do something about the problem caused by the ever increasing number of automobiles on the streets. What he had in mind was figuring out a way to adapt railroad signals for street use. Potts used red, amber, and green railroad lights and about thirty-seven dollars worth of wire and electrical controls to make the world’s first 4-way three color traffic light. It was installed in 1920 on the corner of Woodward and Michigan Avenues in Detroit. Within a year, Detroit had installed a total of fifteen of the new automatic lights.
We have thousands of traffic lights in my metro area but chances are good that no one on any sitting city council ever heard of William Potts. Is it a "biblical principle" to claim that the Seattle City Council is enforcing the Detroit traffic ordinance?
The Seattle police officers enforce Seattle ordinances and Christians obey New Testament ordinances. It is immaterial that Moses imposed similar ideas on his people 2000 years before Jesus was born.
(also) Note that there is no mention of homosexual activity in the 10 Commandments and no mention of lesbian activity in the NT . . . .
Consider the traffic light:
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/trafficlight.htm
>AT A GLANCE:
Police Officer William L. Potts of Detroit, Michigan, decided to do something about the problem caused by the ever increasing number of automobiles on the streets. What he had in mind was figuring out a way to adapt railroad signals for street use. Potts used red, amber, and green railroad lights and about thirty-seven dollars worth of wire and electrical controls to make the world’s first 4-way three color traffic light. It was installed in 1920 on the corner of Woodward and Michigan Avenues in Detroit. Within a year, Detroit had installed a total of fifteen of the new automatic lights.
We have thousands of traffic lights in my metro area but chances are good that no one on any sitting city council ever heard of William Potts. Is it a "biblical principle" to claim that the Seattle City Council is enforcing the Detroit traffic ordinance?
The Seattle police officers enforce Seattle ordinances and Christians obey New Testament ordinances. It is immaterial that Moses imposed similar ideas on his people 2000 years before Jesus was born.
(also) Note that there is no mention of homosexual activity in the 10 Commandments and no mention of lesbian activity in the NT . . . .
Jesus Christ IS the LAW OF GOD; He came to do the WILL and FOREORDINATION of God --- He WAS it.
WHO here, makes reference to the 'Decalogue'? Is it GE? No! It's Billwald!
I - GE - say, GOD, took OATH, that is, GOD spoke or willed HIS LAW for "these last days" in which CHRIST God's Word, would BECOME God's Law on earth for all times and all men; not just for the city of Detroit. I say, God's - no one else's - Sabbath awaited the Revelation of the Law of God through Jesus Christ. Billwald says, no, God spoke his last word about the Sabbath last through Moses.
We live and think in two different worlds, Billwald. But if you are happy with YOUR own 'sabbath'-Sunday, who am I to prevent you? If you are sure God meant no good for his Church with the GIFT through and in Jesus Christ of GOD'S Day for the Body of Christ's Own for to worship HIM ON - you are sure and happy, and I am NOT going to even try spoil your contentedness and happiness.
What makes me happy and content with "The Seventh Day the Sabbath OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" though, is the simple convenience I can put EVERYTHING I believe or say about "God's", "Sabbath Day" for the worship of the Almighty God in the Name of Jesus Christ as "The Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church of "Today when you hear His Voice" God's Law: "Harden not your heart", in quotation marks --- that everything comes straight from the Scriptures. While you have not as much as one word or phrase or even expired done away-with-law in quotation marks for your sunday or no-day of worship.
WHO here, makes reference to the 'Decalogue'? Is it GE? No! It's Billwald!
I - GE - say, GOD, took OATH, that is, GOD spoke or willed HIS LAW for "these last days" in which CHRIST God's Word, would BECOME God's Law on earth for all times and all men; not just for the city of Detroit. I say, God's - no one else's - Sabbath awaited the Revelation of the Law of God through Jesus Christ. Billwald says, no, God spoke his last word about the Sabbath last through Moses.
We live and think in two different worlds, Billwald. But if you are happy with YOUR own 'sabbath'-Sunday, who am I to prevent you? If you are sure God meant no good for his Church with the GIFT through and in Jesus Christ of GOD'S Day for the Body of Christ's Own for to worship HIM ON - you are sure and happy, and I am NOT going to even try spoil your contentedness and happiness.
What makes me happy and content with "The Seventh Day the Sabbath OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" though, is the simple convenience I can put EVERYTHING I believe or say about "God's", "Sabbath Day" for the worship of the Almighty God in the Name of Jesus Christ as "The Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church of "Today when you hear His Voice" God's Law: "Harden not your heart", in quotation marks --- that everything comes straight from the Scriptures. While you have not as much as one word or phrase or even expired done away-with-law in quotation marks for your sunday or no-day of worship.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. In Matt 7 Christ says BEFORE the Cross "Judge not that you be not judged". In so saying He did not "declare the entire Word of God to now be void" -- as so many imagine the "judge not" command to mean today.
2. In Col 2 - Paul is specifically speaking of the Lev 23 annual "shadow Sabbaths" -However it is also true of the 7th day Creation sabbath "made for mankind" that the Matt 7 pre-cross command about "judging others" still applies.
1 Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".
Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God".
James 2 "he who breaks one of the commandments is guilty of breaking all".
Heb 4 "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God".
Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND".
Matt 5 "Think not that I came to ABOLISH the Law of God - I came not to abolish but to fulfill".
Christ perfectly fulfilled Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Christ perfectly fulfilled Deut 6:5 "Love God with all of your heart, soul and mind".
Fulfilling prescriptive laws (such as the Ten Commandments) does not abolish them.
The moral law is not written in a form such as "as soon as one person does not murder - then all may freely murder without incurring penalty or being guilty of sin".
1John 3 makes it clear that sin itself is defined by the Law of God -- sin is the breaking of the Law of God.
James 4:17 "he who knows to do right - and does it not -- to him it is sin".
Charles Stanley apparently is in agreement with at least part of what D.L Moody said -- the Sabbath commandment is still fully in force.
in Christ,
Bob
2. In Col 2 - Paul is specifically speaking of the Lev 23 annual "shadow Sabbaths" -However it is also true of the 7th day Creation sabbath "made for mankind" that the Matt 7 pre-cross command about "judging others" still applies.
1 Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".
Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God".
James 2 "he who breaks one of the commandments is guilty of breaking all".
Heb 4 "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God".
Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND".
Matt 5 "Think not that I came to ABOLISH the Law of God - I came not to abolish but to fulfill".
Christ perfectly fulfilled Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Christ perfectly fulfilled Deut 6:5 "Love God with all of your heart, soul and mind".
Fulfilling prescriptive laws (such as the Ten Commandments) does not abolish them.
The moral law is not written in a form such as "as soon as one person does not murder - then all may freely murder without incurring penalty or being guilty of sin".
1John 3 makes it clear that sin itself is defined by the Law of God -- sin is the breaking of the Law of God.
James 4:17 "he who knows to do right - and does it not -- to him it is sin".
Charles Stanley apparently is in agreement with at least part of what D.L Moody said -- the Sabbath commandment is still fully in force.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 5 the teaching of Christ "THINK NOT that I came to abolish the Law of God -- I did not come to abolish but to fulfill".
This He did in respect to Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
This He did in respect to Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart and soul".
So when Christ declares Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" he affirms that which HE made! For HE declares it to be the Lord's Day saying "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" just as scripture had affirmed in Is 58 that the Sabbath was the Holy "Day of the Lord thy God".
Not only do we see Christ keeping Sabbath in Matt 4 ("as was His custom") we also see Paul doing it not only in Acts 17 but even in Acts 13 where Sabbath after Sabbath gentiles are called together for worship and Bible study - even though the Jews of that city were totally opposed to it.
When looking in the NT for the one commandment NOT repeated - not quoted at all in the NT - you find that the one never quoted (not even in part) is the 3rd commandment about taking God's name in vain.
Fortunately the man-made rule "whatever scripture is not repeated is up for being ignored and deleted" is not a Bible truth of any kind -- so the fact that the third commandment is not quoted in the NT - is not a problem for Bible believing Christians at all.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
GE:
'Let no man therefore judge you with respect to eating and drinking -- in respect of eating and drinking of Feast, whether of month's or of Sabbaths' so often."
So it is none of your business; you are o, so right! It is the business of the Body of Christ's Own celebrating his resurrection from the dead.
>Matt 5 the teaching of Christ "THINK NOT that I came to abolish the Law of God -- I did not come to abolish but to fulfill".
In other words, to obey the law. Do demonstrate that it was humanly possible to follow the law. Every time I stop for a stop sign I am fulfilling the law. Jesus didn't come to abolish/nullify/cancel the law. Jesus obeyed the law and the law still existed.
Jesus, the Jew, provided a demonstration of proper worship for Jews living in their Jewish land. What has this to do with Christian gentiles living in Washington?
In other words, to obey the law. Do demonstrate that it was humanly possible to follow the law. Every time I stop for a stop sign I am fulfilling the law. Jesus didn't come to abolish/nullify/cancel the law. Jesus obeyed the law and the law still existed.
Jesus, the Jew, provided a demonstration of proper worship for Jews living in their Jewish land. What has this to do with Christian gentiles living in Washington?
What has Sunday worship got to do with Christians living in Washington?
A question for Bob Ryan, So those who do NOT "remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy ..... FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH" --- are they transgressors of the Law? Are they desecrating the Sabbath?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
James 4:17 - "To him who knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"
In John 16 the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of truth" that leads us into all truth. However Christ pointed out to His own disciples in that chapter "I have many more things to say to you - but you cannot bear them now". God gives each of us "The next truth" and then "the next one" as we are able to bear it.
The important thing is never to "draw a line for God and tell Him not to dare cross it" as Peter did in Matt 16.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator: