Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Pastor Larry]

The vast majority of Catholics are good saved people.

Based on what? How are you in a position to judge the spiritual status "vast majority" of Catholics?

The only thing we have to go on is what they believe based on what their church teaches (and their life). Their church teaches a way of salvation that is contrary to the Scriptures. If they believe what their church teaches, they are not saved. If they don't believe what their church teaches, why are they in that church?

There are probably some Catholics that are saved, but it is not because of their church teaching.

 

[DHK]

When you were a Catholic who did you pray to? Catholics believe in Christ, they are our brothers in Christ. To the degree that they are in error they are no less fellow brothers in Jesus.


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

More often than not I prayed to Mary; I prayed to St. Christopher (now non-existent); I prayed before idols; I committed idolatry; I prayed to the dead (such as Mary and the so-called saints).

The Catholics don't believe that Christ paid the penalty for their sins.
If they did they wouldn't believe in a doctrine like purgatory where they also have to pay a part of the price of the penalty for the sins.
You cannot be saved and still believe in the doctrines of the RCC. It is an impossiblity. Your friends had better examine themselves to see whether or not they are saved.
It is doubtful that they believe on the Christ of the Bible.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Based on what? How are you in a position to judge the spiritual status "vast majority" of Catholics?

The only thing we have to go on is what they believe based on what their church teaches (and their life). Their church teaches a way of salvation that is contrary to the Scriptures. If they believe what their church teaches, they are not saved. If they don't believe what their church teaches, why are they in that church?

There are probably some Catholics that are saved, but it is not because of their church teaching.

Just for argument sake he showed how he judge that they are saved here:

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Its obvious that he saying that because he believes Catholics are saved because they believe in this basic premise "on his name". Now the onus falls on you to show that is not the case.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Its obvious that he saying that because he believes Catholics are saved because they believe in this basic premise "on his name". Now the onus falls on you to show that is not the case.

The Catholic church does not teach "believe on his name" as the way of salvation, in the way that the Bible teaches it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

More often than not I prayed to Mary; I prayed to St. Christopher (now non-existent); I prayed before idols; I committed idolatry; I prayed to the dead (such as Mary and the so-called saints).

The Catholics don't believe that Christ paid the penalty for their sins.
If they did they wouldn't believe in a doctrine like purgatory where they also have to pay a part of the price of the penalty for the sins.
You cannot be saved and still believe in the doctrines of the RCC. It is an impossiblity. Your friends had better examine themselves to see whether or not they are saved.
It is doubtful that they believe on the Christ of the Bible.

BTW Catholics I've spoken with (including my Father) insist that once you're in Christ you're not dead and that you still participate in the church.

You say

The Catholics don't believe that Christ paid the penalty for their sins.

which Catholics will tell you is a blatant lie. They believe Jesus paid the penalty of their sins :

Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him 153 CC

and again

This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.442

Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience

615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities".444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

From their own teaching. So they would say you're misrepresenting their position. FYI. It's nice to know you prayed to Mary as a Catholic. Having been raised Catholic myself I was lucky if I prayed at all. Most of the time I was just repeating words that I had no idea what they meant.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Catholic church does not teach "believe on his name" as the way of salvation, in the way that the Bible teaches it.

How do you know? What do the Catholics teach with regard to salvation?

 

[Pastor Larry]

How do you know?

Because I study. How are you making such dogmatic statements here when you don't know? I have never managed to understand how people come in here with bold dogmatic statements who admit they don't know what they are talking about.

What do the Catholics teach with regard to salvation?

In a nutshell, they teach salvation through infused righteousness and the sacraments. There's obviously a lot more to it, but it is not salvation by faith alone in Christ alone as the Bible teaches.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Because I study. How are you making such dogmatic statements here when you don't know? I have never managed to understand how people come in here with bold dogmatic statements who admit they don't know what they are talking about.

In a nutshell, they teach salvation through infused grace and the sacraments. There's obviously a lot more to it, but it is not salvation by faith alone in Christ alone as the Bible teaches.

What dogmatic statements have I made? I'm just asking questions here. BTW This is something I read in the CCC

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Can one pray to others than Christ and still claim his blood? Can one practice idolatry and worship the one true God?

While one may be a Christian and attend such a worship, can one really be a prcticing catholic and be a born again beleiver? What about a Mormon and a Christian, maybe Christian Scientist and Christian, JW? Borders on Universalism to me.

 

[DHK]

BTW Catholics I've spoken with (including my Father) insist that once you're in Christ you're not dead and that you still participate in the church.

1. What they believe (according to their Catechism) is not what they practice.
2. Very few Catholics don't have a clue what their Catechism actually says.
3. What they mean by being "in Christ" is not the same as what the Bible teaches about "being in Christ."
4. In spite of what they say, their true belief is that salvation comes only through the RCC.
5. Look up in the Catholic Catechism what it means to be "born again."
One is made alive in Christ by being born again which is being baptized into the Catholic Church--an obvious heresy.

You say which Catholics will tell you is a blatant lie.

Of course they will say it is a blatant lie. They don't know what the Bible says; don't study the Bible; aren't allowed to study the Bible without the priest's interpretation. To question their own religion is just like heresy even when it is wrong. But the truth is that purgatory takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. If they can't see the truthfulness of that doctrine then they are blind to truth; which they are.

They believe Jesus paid the penalty of their sins : and again From their own teaching.

If that is true then why does:
1. A priest must first intercede for them, and
2. Mary has more power to intercede for them than Christ, and
3. Mary intercedes for them on behalf of Christ.

This Mariolotry is idolatry, worship of the dead, and makes Mary a god.

So they would say you're misrepresenting their position. FYI. It's nice to know you prayed to Mary as a Catholic. Having been raised Catholic myself I was lucky if I prayed at all. Most of the time I was just repeating words that I had no idea what they meant.

Praying to Mary is idolatry. It is wrong. It is blasphemous. Only God deserves our worship. Mary is treated as another god in the RCC. Mary is treated as both omnipresent and omniscient.
How can Mary be both present all around the world, and all-knowing all around the world in order to hear and answer all the prayers of all the one billion Catholics scattered all over this world. Mary is dead. She is not God. She does not have the attributes of God. This is blasphemous.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

They are incorrect on several counts here. First of all, justifcation is a legal declaration. It does not detach man from sin, and it does not purify. It is a legal declaration that man is righteous. It is the opposite of condemnation (which is not to do wrong but to be declared condemned). This is why it is possible (and wicked) to justify the wicked (cf Prov 17:15).

Secondly, they deny that justification comes by faith alone. They condemn those who believe that justification is by faith alone. In this, they deny the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture.

You should get a copy of R.C. Sproul's "Faith Alone," or listen to some of his teaching on this. He can explain it very clearly, citing the documents of the Catholic church.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

There is a varied opinion here about these churches. I'm wondering what people thing with regard to this. Can a person still be Catholic or Orthodox (not leaving their church) and be saved? Why or why not?

When non-Catholic Christians say this their answer is often along the lines of, "Yes, as long as they don't worship Mary, or believe that the Pope is infallible, or really believe that the consecrated bread and wine are actually the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ."

From a Catholic perspective, however, one must believe it all. (Note that I said believe it, not understand it.) The Catholic faith is like a house. Every part serves a purpose, and supports the rest of the structure. If you begin with the premise of "how little can I believe and still be a Christian" you will not end up with a very robust faith.

Just as, with a house, you want to have everything there to make a good, solid, completely functioning structure; so it is with the Catholic faith.

CA

 

[historyb]

So how then do you explain that I have two uncles who are Catholic priests and yet who love the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Saviour?

I was Catholic before I was saved, you can't stay in a church that does not teach the real Gospel. There is more to Christianity than just loving there is also right doctrine and the Catholic Church does not have right doctrine

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Not all Baptist churches are the same. Neither are all Catholic churches. For example, the Catholic church closest to my home is an evangelical, charismatic Catholic church. They have Bible studies every evening, Monday - Friday. They have weekly praise & worship services. I went to a funeral there and there was an invitation during the service -- you know, bow your head and close your eyes type of thing. Also, many women who attend Bible Study Fellowship every week with my wife are Catholic.

 

[Alive in Christ]

HistoryB.....

"No, the RCC believes we must work for heaven. The only way is by Faith in Christ"

And you know the heart of every single catholic and orthodox, and you know for sure that absolutly none of them "know better" concerning the falsehoods their church wickedly proclaims, but choose to stay in anyway...for whatever reason?

I agree completly with you that the Romish cult proclaims a false and non-saving gospel, as does the orthodox cult.

But that doesnt mean that every single individual one of them...with no exceptions...absolutly for certain does not possess saving faith in Christ.

Remember, the opening post was not talking about the false gospel these cults proclaim, but rather can some of them possibly have saving faith.


:godisgood:

 

[Melanie]

I was Catholic before I was saved, you can't stay in a church that does not teach the real Gospel. There is more to Christianity than just loving there is also right doctrine and the Catholic Church does not have right doctrine

I too fell away from the RCC but have returned because I attend the Tridentine Mass.....there is an Epistle and Gospel reading each day of the year and because the Mass is offered in Latin...on a Sunday the Epistle and Gospel are then repeated in English for those who do not have a Daily Missal. The sermon is based on these readings.At the end of the Mass the concluding Gospel reading is from John 1:1-14

During Mass there is any number of portions of the Bible incorporated into the structure of the Mass.

 

[Matt Black]

What is there to explain? The question is simple: Do they affirm and believe what the Catholic church teaches? IF they do, then they are not saved; they don't love the Lord JEsus and their Lord and Savior.

Er...they do both. Explain that...!

Bringing personalities into it is always a bad thing because it clouds the issue. God gave us revelation to konw the truth, not uncles (or aunts or neighbors or anybody else).

So there is no value in personal testimony? So value in preachers since they are mere 'personalities'?

 

[Matt Black]

I was Catholic before I was saved, you can't stay in a church that does not teach the real Gospel. There is more to Christianity than just loving there is also right doctrine and the Catholic Church does not have right doctrine

Ah, so you're saying we're not saved by faith alone, then? According to you we are saved by faith and 'right doctrine'. And, pray tell, how does one determine the latter?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Er...they do both. Explain that...!

No, they don't do both. It is impossible. They may say they do both, but someone who rejects his teaching as the RCC does, does not at the same time love him and trust him alone for salvation. If you love me, Jesus says, then you will do what I say. Someone who teaches in opposition to what he says, as the RCC does, is not doing what He says, and therefore is not loving him.

So there is no value in personal testimony?

Sure, but not compared to Scripture. The testimony you are giving of these men shows that their testimony does not measure up to Scripture.

So value in preachers since they are mere 'personalities'?

I assume you mean "no value," and if they are "mere personalities," then yes there is no value in them at least in terms of the discussion here. A preacher's value comes only when he speaks the Word of the Lord from Scripture. Too many preachers are given to telling stories about themselves or someone else, not telling the story of Scripture.

 

[Matt Black]

So how do you account for the fact that (in so far as anyone is able to judge the salvation of another) they are saved, then?