Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Pastor Larry]

All believers in Jesus (or Christians) are children of Abraham who is the father of Jacob or Israel. We are the true inheretors. Not Judaism. Salvation is Christianity. Let me put it this way Salvation is from Jesus those who believe in Jesus are Christians you cannot separate Christianity (those who are saved) from Jesus unless its the faithless and I wouldn't call them christians. But unbelievers or those not saved or not elect.

The offspring of Abraham is not the same as the offspring of Israel. Israel was Jacob, and the nation that came from him. The offspring of Abraham was much broader. We are Abraham's offspring by faith, that is, we share his faith.

Judaism isn't a true inheritor. But national Israel will be when they repent and are restored in accordance with the promise of God.

However, the Bible does not say that Abraham believed in Jesus as his Savior. That would have been foreign to him.

You can't separate Christianity from Jesus, but Christianity doesn't save. Jesus does.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The offspring of Abraham is not the same as the offspring of Israel. Israel was Jacob, and the nation that came from him. The offspring of Abraham was much broader. We are Abraham's offspring by faith, that is, we share his faith.

Judaism isn't a true inheritor. But national Israel will be when they repent and are restored in accordance with the promise of God.

However, the Bible does not say that Abraham believed in Jesus as his Savior. That would have been foreign to him.

You can't separate Christianity from Jesus, but Christianity doesn't save. Jesus does.

You cannot be christian unless you are saved.

Can an Israelite be saved based on his birth? No.

Are you also saying that once Israel repents (this would be Jews) it is the end of christianity? That there is no longer hope for the Gentile unless the become a citizen of the nation of Israel there by being saved? That would make the Christian period only an interm and not the fulflillment of the scriptures. If that is the case you might as well go to Israel serve in a Kibutz and pray for its repentance. I guess the would also re institute animal sacrifice right?

 

[DHK]

You cannot be christian unless you are saved.

Can an Israelite be saved based on his birth? No.

Are you also saying that once Israel repents (this would be Jews) it is the end of christianity? That there is no longer hope for the Gentile unless the become a citizen of the nation of Israel there by being saved? That would make the Christian period only an interm and not the fulflillment of the scriptures. If that is the case you might as well go to Israel serve in a Kibutz and pray for its repentance. I guess the would also re institute animal sacrifice right?

The only way that any person can be saved in this dispensation of grace, or this church age is by faith in the shed blood of Christ. God has not provided any other way--not for the Jew, the Muslim; not for anyone. As the Muslim gives up his Islamic faith, so the Jew gives up his Judaism when he becomes a Christian. You cannot worship both at the same time. There is only one way of salvation. Jesus said "I am the way..."

If a Jew does not receive Christ now, and dies, he will go to hell.
It would be a terrible thing for a Jew to gamble and think that he will be a part of the remnant that will be saved during the end of tribulation. That is the only other time grace will be offered to the Jews--near the end of the Tribulation, at the Coming of Christ, when those Jews will turn to Christ as a nation and accept Him as their Messiah.
Again it would be folly for any Jew to believe that is going to happen in his lifetime and then die and go to hell. Now is the day of salvation; now is the accepted time. Tomorrow may be too late.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You cannot be christian unless you are saved.

Exactly. But you are not saved by Christianity. You are saved by Christ.

Can an Israelite be saved based on his birth? No.

Exactly.

Are you also saying that once Israel repents (this would be Jews) it is the end of christianity? That there is no longer hope for the Gentile unless the become a citizen of the nation of Israel there by being saved?

No, not at all. Christianity/the church is eternal.

That would make the Christian period only an interm and not the fulflillment of the scriptures.

Christianity is not "the fulfillment" of the Scriptures. There is much more.

If that is the case you might as well go to Israel serve in a Kibutz and pray for its repentance. I guess the would also re institute animal sacrifice right?

We should pray for the repentance of Israel, as we should for all people. But God promises to bring the repentance of Israel. And Ezekiel says that the sacrifices will be restored. They will not (as they did not) atone for sin. Only Jesus does that. In the millennium, the sacrifices will be memorial.

However, we are pretty far afield here from the topic. I am not ever sure how we got here.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Exactly. But you are not saved by Christianity. You are saved by Christ.

Exactly.

No, not at all. Christianity/the church is eternal.

Christianity is not "the fulfillment" of the Scriptures. There is much more.

We should pray for the repentance of Israel, as we should for all people. But God promises to bring the repentance of Israel. And Ezekiel says that the sacrifices will be restored. They will not (as they did not) atone for sin. Only Jesus does that. In the millennium, the sacrifices will be memorial.

However, we are pretty far afield here from the topic. I am not ever sure how we got here.

Can a Catholic or Orthodox practitioner be saved? Is the original intent then there was discussion to whether or not they are even Christian or Pagan. Specifically the view of Mary's role in both denominations to which I replied that it was misrepresented by non - CC or OC. And especially the referrence verse in REV 17 with a counter verse in REV 12 which lead to the Nature of Christianity with regard to Israel and its Eschetology. That's pretty much how we got here Though I would have to say Ezekiel was fulfilled by the 2nd temple period times and during the first Century. The temple was destroyed by the Bablyonians and not restored until much later after the return. Though they Had to fight for it through the Maccabean revolt.

 

[Matt Black]

Cutting to the chase re the OP: if someone truly loves and is devoted to the Lord Jesus Christ, as I know many Catholics are (including my relatives), I fail to see how that same Lord Jesus could consign them to the fires of Hell. Imagine the scene: Catholic arrives before the Throne of Grace - "O my sweet, dear, beloved Jesus, how wonderful to behold You face to face and spend eternity with You, and how great that I didn't have to go to Purgatory (which it turns out doesn't exist after all) first!" Jesus: "Erm...this is a bit problematic and embarrassing: I know you love and adore Me greatly, but I'm afraid you got part of your theology wrong and were in the Wrong Church, so I'm going to have to send you Downstairs."

Can't really see it, can you?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Cutting to the chase re the OP: if someone truly loves and is devoted to the Lord Jesus Christ, as I know many Catholics are (including my relatives), I fail to see how that same Lord Jesus could consign them to the fires of Hell. Imagine the scene: Catholic arrives before the Throne of Grace - "O my sweet, dear, beloved Jesus, how wonderful to behold You face to face and spend eternity with You, and how great that I didn't have to go to Purgatory (which it turns out doesn't exist after all) first!" Jesus: "Erm...this is a bit problematic and embarrassing: I know you love and adore Me greatly, but I'm afraid you got part of your theology wrong and were in the Wrong Church, so I'm going to have to send you Downstairs."

Can't really see it, can you?

So are you saying that those of us who are sola fide are not really so that we must have faith and good Theology?

 

[Matt Black]

I'm more than happy to be disabused of that notion but that is what seems to be implied here: that it's all very well having faith in Jesus Christ and His saving work on the Cross etc but that you also, to an extent at least, must adhere to the correct doctrine (although how one gets to determine what is 'correct' there is another matter), so it comes across as not so much 'faith alone' but 'faith + right theology'.

 

[Darron Steele]

Matt, I really wish you would have let this eyesore of a thread get buried.

I'm more than happy to be disabused of that notion but that is what seems to be implied here: that it's all very well having faith in Jesus Christ and His saving work on the Cross etc but that you also, to an extent at least, must adhere to the correct doctrine (although how one gets to determine what is 'correct' there is another matter), so it comes across as not so much 'faith alone' but 'faith + right theology'.

No; what this thread TURNED INTO was

• several people venting their gripes about Catholicism and any similar religious system, and often using `undiplomatic' word choices and delivery methods.

• people reasonably offended responding.

It was nothing better than that.

In my opinion, this thread should never have been started. There are people here who deeply dislike Catholicism, and some hate the religious system so much they hope adherence to any part of it is punished by Hell. There are people here who are addicted to venting their dislikes of Catholicism and/or Catholics. No matter what the subject and intended topic, threads like this always get hijacked by these people to indulge their addiction.

Cutting to the chase re the OP: if someone truly loves and is devoted to the Lord Jesus Christ, as I know many Catholics are (including my relatives), I fail to see how that same Lord Jesus could consign them to the fires of Hell. Imagine the scene: Catholic arrives before the Throne of Grace - "O my sweet, dear, beloved Jesus, how wonderful to behold You face to face and spend eternity with You, and how great that I didn't have to go to Purgatory (which it turns out doesn't exist after all) first!" Jesus: "Erm...this is a bit problematic and embarrassing: I know you love and adore Me greatly, but I'm afraid you got part of your theology wrong and were in the Wrong Church, so I'm going to have to send you Downstairs."

Can't really see it, can you?

No, I cannot. I cannot imagine Him saying `I know you believed on Me, submitted to Me as Lord, and appealed to Me for your salvation, but you went to the wrong place on Sunday mornings, so depart from Me.' From what I read in Scripture, there is no possibility of that.

The question of this thread was NOT `Can someone buy into the entirety of Orthodox or Catholic precepts and be saved?' That is a whole other matter than what this thread's intended topic was.

The question of this thread WAS "Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?" If a person has primary church attendance there, and attends church meetings regularly, s/he is still considered "practicing" even if s/he does not agree with what is taught.

Here is what the Bible says of Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

If a person who becomes a believer on Jesus Christ

• stays in a Catholic congregation or Orthodox congregation, and

• is not convinced that s/he has any real reason to leave

I think the Bible requires us to assume that the believer on Jesus Christ is saved.

Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). I do not see any authority for a `unless s/he goes to Such-and-Such Place on Sunday mornings.'

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Matt, I really wish you would have let this eyesore of a thread get buried.

No; what this thread TURNED INTO was

• several people venting their gripes about Catholicism and any similar religious system, and often using `undiplomatic' word choices and delivery methods.

• people reasonably offended responding.

It was nothing better than that.

In my opinion, this thread should never have been started. No matter what the subject and intended topic, threads like this always get hijacked by people addicted to venting bad feelings about Catholicism -- and/or Catholics.

No, I cannot. I cannot imagine Him saying `I know you believed on Me, submitted to Me as Lord, and appealed to Me for your salvation, but you went to the wrong place on Sunday mornings, so depart from Me.' From what I read in Scripture, there is no possibility of that.

The question of this thread was NOT `Can someone buy into the entirety of Orthodox or Catholic precepts and be saved?' That is a whole other matter than what this thread's intended topic was.

The question of this thread WAS "Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?" If a person is attending church meetings, s/he is still considered "practicing" even if s/he does not agree with what is taught.

Here is what the Bible says of Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

If a person who becomes a believer on Jesus Christ

• stays in a Catholic congregation or Orthodox congregation, and

• is not convinced that s/he has any real reason to leave

I think the Bible requires us to assume that the believer on Jesus Christ is saved.

Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). I do not see any authority for a `unless s/he goes to Such-and-Such Place on Sunday mornings.'

So your answer is yes a practicing Catholic or Orthodox can be saved and still retain their Catholic or Orthodox faith? This seems to Contrast severly with John Macarthurs view with regard to this topic. (I really didn't know John Macarthur until reading this site)

So there are a number of problems in regard to just simply saying Roman Catholics are Christians...And what you’re looking at in the church is an accumulated proliferation of symbolic stuff that maybe in the beginning was intended to represent spiritual reality, but somehow has totally obscured the reality...in fact I would be downright merciless to any Roman Catholic to whom I didn’t say that because your eternal soul is at stake in this issue.

Which spurs on this discussion. The issue I have is that there are Catholics who've I've met that are devoted to Jesus and doing his will. And in practical application some of these have done very much to help the poor and take care of the sick which reading the Gospels seems to be Jesus' measuring stick of how faithful you are to him.

 

[Darron Steele]

So your answer is yes a practicing Catholic or Orthodox can be saved and still retain their Catholic or Orthodox faith? This seems to Contrast severly with John Macarthurs view with regard to this topic.

So what? I do not care if my view disagrees with John MacArthur's or whomever's view. Do you think I choose some leader and turn my brain off? No; I am responsible for my own discipleship. I go with the Bible and my best understanding thereof.

Now, "retain their Catholic or Orthodox faith" is a whole other matter, and requires clarification by you. What do you mean? If a person buys into 100% of Catholicism's or Orthodoxy's precepts that s/he knows about, and does all the right stuff -- but expects to save themselves and does not rely on Jesus Christ for salvation, there may be a problem.

I answered your original question: a person can be a "practicing" Orthodox or Catholic and still be saved. Acts 10:43 says of Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). If a person is a believer on Jesus Christ, and also attends an Orthodox or Catholic congregation regularly and as church home, s/he is saved.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So what? I do not care if my view disagrees with John MacArthur's or whomever's view. Do you think I choose some leader and turn my brain off? No; I am responsible for my own discipleship. I go with the Bible and my best understanding thereof.

Now, "retain their Catholic or Orthodox faith" is a whole other matter, and requires clarification by you. What do you mean? If a person buys into 100% of Catholicism's or Orthodoxy's precepts that s/he knows about, and does all the right stuff -- but expects to save themselves and does not rely on Jesus Christ for salvation, there may be a problem.

I answered your original question: a person can be a "practicing" Orthodox or Catholic and still be saved. Acts 10:43 says of Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). If a person is a believer on Jesus Christ, and also attends an Orthodox or Catholic congregation regularly and as church home, s/he is saved.

Don't be offended. I'm not trying to offend you. I only bring up Macarthur here because there is quite a lot of people who fall to either side of agreeing or not with him. Personally I don't take any stock with him. Just another Dude out there putting out his opinions. However, this issue conserns me as it conserns my family. Most Catholics who know what they are talking about. (the vast majority don't) will say that whether they do good works or not is not a way of earning salvation. But it is a requirement of those who are being saved. Like in the military. You're sign your life away when you sign the papers and raise your hand to vow to protect the constitution of the US. However, now you're in you must adhere to the military's code of conduct. Not to do so will get you expelled from basic training. That's how Catholics view the whole works thing with regard to salvation. Its in their documents though at times admittedly long legal termenology throws a lot of people off. Certainly they are not Calvinistic and Armeniest come closer to Catholic theology though not totally. Yet all here would claim both are saved. (Calvinist-Armenianist).

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, I really wish you would have let this eyesore of a thread get buried.


No; what this thread TURNED INTO was

• several people venting their gripes about Catholicism and any similar religious system, and often using `undiplomatic' word choices and delivery methods.

• people reasonably offended responding.

It was nothing better than that.

In my opinion, this thread should never have been started. There are people here who deeply dislike Catholicism, and some hate the religious system so much they hope adherence to any part of it is punished by Hell. There are people here who are addicted to venting their dislikes of Catholicism and/or Catholics. No matter what the subject and intended topic, threads like this always get hijacked by these people to indulge their addiction.

No, I cannot. I cannot imagine Him saying `I know you believed on Me, submitted to Me as Lord, and appealed to Me for your salvation, but you went to the wrong place on Sunday mornings, so depart from Me.' From what I read in Scripture, there is no possibility of that.

The question of this thread was NOT `Can someone buy into the entirety of Orthodox or Catholic precepts and be saved?' That is a whole other matter than what this thread's intended topic was.

The question of this thread WAS "Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?" If a person has primary church attendance there, and attends church meetings regularly, s/he is still considered "practicing" even if s/he does not agree with what is taught.

Here is what the Bible says of Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).


If a person who becomes a believer on Jesus Christ

• stays in a Catholic congregation or Orthodox congregation, and

• is not convinced that s/he has any real reason to leave

I think the Bible requires us to assume that the believer on Jesus Christ is saved.

Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). I do not see any authority for a `unless s/he goes to Such-and-Such Place on Sunday mornings.'

Thanks; that is my view also

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinkingstuff...

"Most Catholics who know what they are talking about. (the vast majority don't) will say that whether they do good works or not is not a way of earning salvation. But it is a requirement of those who are being saved."

That statement is classic Catholic (and Othodox) double-talk.

Its a way of duping people into thinking that they DONT in fact proclaim a faith+works false gospel...as opposed to Gods saving gospel of faith alone.

That said...I DO agree that it is *possible* for practicing Catholics or Orthodox to possess saving faith and be born of the Spirit. (saved)

Not the norm of course...but possible.

:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff...



That statement is classic Catholic (and Othodox) double-talk.

Its a way of duping people into thinking that they DONT in fact proclaim a faith+works false gospel...as opposed to Gods saving gospel of faith alone.

That said...I DO agree that it is *possible* for practicing Catholics or Orthodox to possess saving faith and be born of the Spirit. (saved)

Not the norm of course...but possible.

:godisgood:

Just out of curiosity is it double talk if a Calvinist says that if you're not displaying works you never were a christian?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

That said...I DO agree that it is *possible* for practicing Catholics or Orthodox to possess saving faith and be born of the Spirit. (saved)

Not the norm of course...but possible.

And I too agree that it is *possible* for practicing Baptist's to posses saving faith and be born of the Spirit and saved, no matter how ignorant they are of the Truth...I guess you can say "'saved' by association", meaning they have enough of the Truth by the Church that proclaimed the Truth and were martyred for the Truth in the first few centuries of the Christian Church to make it in.

Not the Norm of course, but...it's possible.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

And I too agree that it is *possible* for practicing Baptist's to posses saving faith and be born of the Spirit and saved, no matter how ignorant they are of the Truth...I guess you can say "'saved' by association", meaning they have enough of the Truth by the Church that proclaimed the Truth and were martyred for the Truth in the first few centuries of the Christian Church to make it in.

Not the Norm of course, but...it's possible.

In XC
-

But it was the norm. Even if you were a heretic, but disagreed with Rome, you would be martyred for "your" faith.
Go back to Daniel. Daniel's three friends were thrown into the fiery furnace. Had there been others singled out who would not bow down (like the J.W.s of today) they also would have been martyred--whether in Nebuchadnezzar's day or in Nero's day. It would have made no difference if they were true believers or not.

In Islamic nations, most Muslims don't distinguish between Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant (liberal or otherwise), or Baptist. To them all are Christian, and all are worthy of death--especially in an extremist state run by such groups like the Taliban.

 

[historyb]

Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

I wish to revise my answer to Yes

 

[Surfer Joe]

No, the RCC believes we must work for heaven. The only way is by Faith in Christ

Actually, they don't believe that. If yo don't believe me, go onto Catholicanswers.com. I said the very same thing and was informed that I was wrong.

I went to Good Friday service and I heard more of the Gospel and teaching about Jesus dying for their sins than I have heard in some Protestant churches and while watching televangelists.

 

[Surfer Joe]

Thinkingstuff...



That statement is classic Catholic (and Othodox) double-talk.

Its a way of duping people into thinking that they DONT in fact proclaim a faith+works false gospel...as opposed to Gods saving gospel of faith alone.

That said...I DO agree that it is *possible* for practicing Catholics or Orthodox to possess saving faith and be born of the Spirit. (saved)

Not the norm of course...but possible.

:godisgood:

Actually, it's the same thing I have heard in many protestant churches. I just heard someone on the radio say the same thing the other day. My old Baptist church before I moved to the states said the same thing. Basically, we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone. Real faith produces good works.