Are We Playing Church?

[HAMel]

(Notice: Longer than a sound bite)

I was recently accused of being a “fear-monger” by my pastor. This was a knee-jerk reaction/response to my proposal of beefing up our by-laws to include certain language regarding our recent Supreme Court Decision regarding marriage. (I do suppose some of the individual members of this court are of the misguided opinion they will be exempt from that Final Judgment but that's another story)

Well, this response went on me like a skillet full of hot gravy. Fully realizing my weaknesses and flaws in that I'm not a Yale graduate, I decided to seek the definition of the word..., “monger”. As it applies here the word refers to one who promotes a specified activity, situation, or feeling, especially one that is undesirable or discreditable.

Okay. So what's the problem here? Why “wuz” I subjected to such an immediate and hostile resistance to typing up a Statement of Faith or, incorporating language into our by-laws detailing our position on marriage? It did take a few days to sort it all out as I am a bit introverted.

Come to find out, a woman who is married to a heavy duty mover and shaker of our church has a son that is..., “that way” but lives in another city. Notice, I said a woman who is married to this man..., her son is not his. (In keeping with the Justice's, that's another story)

I then discover the daughter of another who sits securely in a seat of the church hierarchy has a daughter that would certainly have no interest in the son of the other woman if he was straight as she currently resides with her girlfriend. (Another story)

Let me say that I recognize that once our off-spring(s) age to adulthood we lose control of and often, all influence over their lives. The path(s) they take is of their doing(s) so I'm not pointing a finger at the above mentioned woman or man. I certainly don't hold them responsible and, truth be known ALL OF US have those of that same persuasion in our extended families.

My daughter, a Christian School Teacher told recently of a conversation with a woman who was raised in a Baptist Church, married, had kids, divorced and now has switched to the other side. She spoke of having prayed and prayed to God about her choice but could not discern any response. Obviously, she was confused and apparently was but seeking His approval, or His understanding. Well, His answer has already been provided to us. End of subject!

So, with all of this said it does appear that MY church refuses to address the matter simply because it would “offend” other members. To me, the truth should not offend as it's the truth! It seems to me that those controllers within MY church dance around the subject under the impression that if it's out sight..., it's out mind..., and just maybe the problem will go away. No, problems don't “go away”..., they only manifest. To me, this willingness to abstain from the entire Gospel waters down the real purpose of the church and specifically hinders the Holy Spirit.

I don't think I need to attend that church any longer. I do believe that almost ALL local and rural church are of the same mentality and if someone were to open any closet door..., skeletons would come tumbling out all over the place. I told my wife the other day that should I resign my membership in that church..., I'll never join another one. My God..., satan appears to be in control!!!

...are we just playing church?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes....stick a fork in it.....find a bible believing church

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My church recently added to its Constitution that marriage is only between a man and a woman. We were advised to do so to prevent possible legal challenges in the future if we declined to marry two people of the same gender.

 

[HAMel]

...but, but, but iconoclast..., at my age and considering the number of churches we've belonged to over the years (my employment caused us to relocate quite frequently) it does appear they are ALL almost the same. Are their any churches doing as they should?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Hamel,

Be glad that you were counted as such, and not pressed into the worlds mold, Romans 12:1ff. Unfortunately it sounds as if your church is, and that perhaps a hireling is in charge if in fact he fears what others will think if he makes a biblical stand.

Our constitution defends against this, but that doesn't mean the government cannot label us holding to hate crimes in the future. One person visited our church and became angry that the word 'homosexuals' was read from the Scriptures. The visitor didn't balk when idolaters, adulterers or drunkards were part of the same group and passage. She picked up her marbles and went home, there are plenty of other churches in town that will accommodate her version of god and 'truth'.

 

[Iconoclast]

...but, but, but iconoclast..., at my age and considering the number of churches we've belonged to over the years (my employment caused us to relocate quite frequently) it does appear they are ALL almost the same. Are their any churches doing as they should?

For the sake of your blood pressure find like minded believers who reverence God and His word. if need be...travel a bit to find faithful persons, or at least those willing to obey Jesus as Lord.

 

[annsni]

It may take some searching and you may end up meeting in a school or a hotel in a smaller church but there are good churches out there. It is absolutely imperative that churches address this issue unless they just don't feel it is an issue and in that case, I would have to leave. Our church rewrote our by-laws last year to specify who we would marry and who we would not marry and finished it out with saying that we can refuse to marry a couple at our discretion. I do feel for those in the leadership who have family members who struggle with this particular sin but we can't decide to embrace it because it is our loved daughter or son. Sin is sin is sin and while we still love them, we must address it or else we just might be loving them into hell.

 

[Internet Theologian]

...but, but, but iconoclast..., at my age and considering the number of churches we've belonged to over the years (my employment caused us to relocate quite frequently) it does appear they are ALL almost the same. Are their any churches doing as they should?

Hamel,

It can become depressing when one considers what is going on. But keep in mind God reserves to Himself those who will not bow the knee to the baals of the times. You are also aware, as an older man, the power of prayer, and know God answers. He will answer yours in this in His way. Maybe He will move you as you look? There are good churches out there that stand for truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

I visited a church today where many of the members are older...seasoned saints...
They do not buy in on all these compromised churchs popping up, but rather lament the sinful condition....remember Lot's wife!

 

[Zaac]

(Notice: Longer than a sound bite)

I was recently accused of being a “fear-monger” by my pastor. This was a knee-jerk reaction/response to my proposal of beefing up our by-laws to include certain language regarding our recent Supreme Court Decision regarding marriage. (I do suppose some of the individual members of this court are of the misguided opinion they will be exempt from that Final Judgment but that's another story)

Sounds like you and the Pastor need to have a talk.

Well, this response went on me like a skillet full of hot gravy. Fully realizing my weaknesses and flaws in that I'm not a Yale graduate, I decided to seek the definition of the word..., “monger”. As it applies here the word refers to one who promotes a specified activity, situation, or feeling, especially one that is undesirable or discreditable.

This seems to be somewhat of an unfair assessment in which you may have allowed the enemy to whisper fuel onto a fire that wasn't blazing. You went on the defensive. I suggest pushing the pause button and approaching this from another perspective.

Okay. So what's the problem here? Why “wuz” I subjected to such an immediate and hostile resistance to typing up a Statement of Faith or, incorporating language into our by-laws detailing our position on marriage? It did take a few days to sort it all out as I am a bit introverted.

I get your consternation. But I'm envisioning the enemy pushing you into the wrong direction on this. And the following somewhat, pardon me, "gossipy" accounts tell me that you may want to put on the brakes here.

Come to find out, a woman who is married to a heavy duty mover and shaker of our church has a son that is..., “that way” but lives in another city. Notice, I said a woman who is married to this man..., her son is not his. (In keeping with the Justice's, that's another story)

I then discover the daughter of another who sits securely in a seat of the church hierarchy has a daughter that would certainly have no interest in the son of the other woman if he was straight as she currently resides with her girlfriend. (Another story)

Let me say that I recognize that once our off-spring(s) age to adulthood we lose control of and often, all influence over their lives. The path(s) they take is of their doing(s) so I'm not pointing a finger at the above mentioned woman or man. I certainly don't hold them responsible and, truth be known ALL OF US have those of that same persuasion in our extended families.

My daughter, a Christian School Teacher told recently of a conversation with a woman who was raised in a Baptist Church, married, had kids, divorced and now has switched to the other side. She spoke of having prayed and prayed to God about her choice but could not discern any response. Obviously, she was confused and apparently was but seeking His approval, or His understanding. Well, His answer has already been provided to us. End of subject!

So, with all of this said it does appear that MY church refuses to address the matter simply because it would “offend” other members.

I think that needs to remain the focus that you address with the pastor and not what you've perceived as an insult and managed to talk yourself up about as being an insult.

To me, the truth should not offend as it's the truth!

That's why the truth offends. It will always offend that which is against it.

It seems to me that those controllers within MY church dance around the subject under the impression that if it's out sight..., it's out mind..., and just maybe the problem will go away. No, problems don't “go away”..., they only manifest. To me, this willingness to abstain from the entire Gospel waters down the real purpose of the church and specifically hinders the Holy Spirit.

So is the issue that he's not preaching the FULL Gospel or that he refuses to address the same-sex marriage issue?

I don't think I need to attend that church any longer.

Perhaps. But make sure you take that before God's throne in prayer.

I do believe that almost ALL local and rural church are of the same mentality and if someone were to open any closet door..., skeletons would come tumbling out all over the place. I told my wife the other day that should I resign my membership in that church..., I'll never join another one. My God..., satan appears to be in control!!!

You're giving him a toe hold.

 

[Zaac]

I visited a church today where many of the members are older...seasoned saints...

But does not such a church need to be pulling in Saints of all ages if it is to survive and grow and still be in existence to do the work of the Saints?

They do not buy in on all these compromised churchs popping up, but rather lament the sinful condition....remember Lot's wife!

As they shouldn't. But are they also making disciples who can stand firm against the compromise by reproducing others who too stand against the compromise? Or are they just within their "safe- spaces" complaining about the deteriorating condition?

 

[HAMel]

I think that's what we are going to end up doing, Iconoclast. Just visit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Zaac

But does not such a church need to be pulling in Saints of all ages if it is to survive and grow and still be in existence to do the work of the Saints?

This is the correct question brother!
My wife and I have visited about 15 churches in the past year....This church needs some help, some work..... There are three or four others that believe more in line with what I believe, but they are a distance away.
So the struggle is travel and blend in, or stay very local and take on the challenge. This is a country kind of church...some faithful brethren...some spacy young people...not a mega church for sure....

As they shouldn't. But are they also making disciples who can stand firm against the compromise by reproducing others who too stand against the compromise? Or are they just within their "safe- spaces" complaining about the deteriorating condition?

this is my concern or caution...as an outsider with somewhat different doctrine, can I be effective if I cannot gain the trust of some of the born and raised set there.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think that's what we are going to end up doing, Iconoclast. Just visit.

What town do you live by? sermonaudio has a church finder on the site....you can listen before you visit.....just enter your zip code

 

[th1bill]

(Notice: Longer than a sound bite)

I was recently accused of being a “fear-monger” by my pastor. This was a knee-jerk reaction/response to my proposal of beefing up our by-laws to include certain language regarding our recent Supreme Court Decision regarding marriage. (I do suppose some of the individual members of this court are of the misguided opinion they will be exempt from that Final Judgment but that's another story)

Well, this response went on me like a skillet full of hot gravy. Fully realizing my weaknesses and flaws in that I'm not a Yale graduate, I decided to seek the definition of the word..., “monger”. As it applies here the word refers to one who promotes a specified activity, situation, or feeling, especially one that is undesirable or discreditable.

Okay. So what's the problem here? Why “wuz” I subjected to such an immediate and hostile resistance to typing up a Statement of Faith or, incorporating language into our by-laws detailing our position on marriage? It did take a few days to sort it all out as I am a bit introverted.

Come to find out, a woman who is married to a heavy duty mover and shaker of our church has a son that is..., “that way” but lives in another city. Notice, I said a woman who is married to this man..., her son is not his. (In keeping with the Justice's, that's another story)

I then discover the daughter of another who sits securely in a seat of the church hierarchy has a daughter that would certainly have no interest in the son of the other woman if he was straight as she currently resides with her girlfriend. (Another story)

Let me say that I recognize that once our off-spring(s) age to adulthood we lose control of and often, all influence over their lives. The path(s) they take is of their doing(s) so I'm not pointing a finger at the above mentioned woman or man. I certainly don't hold them responsible and, truth be known ALL OF US have those of that same persuasion in our extended families.

My daughter, a Christian School Teacher told recently of a conversation with a woman who was raised in a Baptist Church, married, had kids, divorced and now has switched to the other side. She spoke of having prayed and prayed to God about her choice but could not discern any response. Obviously, she was confused and apparently was but seeking His approval, or His understanding. Well, His answer has already been provided to us. End of subject!

So, with all of this said it does appear that MY church refuses to address the matter simply because it would “offend” other members. To me, the truth should not offend as it's the truth! It seems to me that those controllers within MY church dance around the subject under the impression that if it's out sight..., it's out mind..., and just maybe the problem will go away. No, problems don't “go away”..., they only manifest. To me, this willingness to abstain from the entire Gospel waters down the real purpose of the church and specifically hinders the Holy Spirit.

I don't think I need to attend that church any longer. I do believe that almost ALL local and rural church are of the same mentality and if someone were to open any closet door..., skeletons would come tumbling out all over the place. I told my wife the other day that should I resign my membership in that church..., I'll never join another one. My God..., satan appears to be in control!!!

...are we just playing church?

Yes, better than 98% of the membership are playing Church and will go to Hell until the last rapture and the Great White Throne Judgement. Then they will reside in the Abyss, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire for Eternity. Jesus will tell them He never knew them.

For a long time I was a member of the BibleForums.org but they put on a queer San Franciso Fire Chaplin as moderator and he convinced the Canadian Admin to ban me for being mean to the Homosexual Community of San Fran.

If we got rid of the sexual sins inside the Church, as we are taught to do, the pews would be empty because they will not repent.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, better than 98% of the membership are playing Church and will go to Hell until the last rapture and the Great White Throne Judgement. Then they will reside in the Abyss, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire for Eternity. Jesus will tell them He never knew them.

Wow! You really think that 98% of the membership of the church you attend is lost and hell bound? Eek

 

[Zaac]

Zaac


This is the correct question brother!
My wife and I have visited about 15 churches in the past year....This church needs some help, some work..... There are three or four others that believe more in line with what I believe, but they are a distance away.
So the struggle is travel and blend in, or stay very local and take on the challenge. This is a country kind of church...some faithful brethren...some spacy young people...not a mega church for sure....

It's a tricky thing Icon, and one that I think will always require deep prayer about where God wants you.

this is my concern or caution...as an outsider with somewhat different doctrine, can I be effective if I cannot gain the trust of some of the born and raised set there.

It will definitely require trust. Because unless you're going in with a few allies, it would probably be easier or more beneficial to just start a new church.

 

[HankD]

Recently we have been studying the 7 churches of Revelation.

RE: The church at Ephesus:
They were commended by Jesus for their stand against evil folk and false apostles who were found to be liars (Jesus always speaks His mind).
However He was also as strong in His rebuke "you have left your first love".

Why does this happen? Well, reading 1 Corinthians 13 :
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

In another place:
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

Personally I believe there must be a balance between truth and love (agape).

If we are strong in the truth we must also be strong in agape else we become legalistic, pharisaical.
On the other hand we cannot yield to the world - e.g. approve or perform a same gender marriage even if it is legal. Murder of the unborn is also legal.

Here is another reason they might have left their first love:

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

We certainly have that problem today.

So what should that balance be?

We cannot adopt the sinful philosophies of the world today, so we must gently as possible let our position be known.

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Then pray and leave it in God's hands.

Will we suffer the legal consequence here in America for our position and/or refusing to perform a legal function?

The answer ranges somewhere in between - possibly to probably.

Then we will be more like the church at Smyrna (the suffering church).
... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

That's not "fear mongering" but simply "facing reality".

HankD

 

[HAMel]

How right you are, HandD. The "facing of reality". Enough of the nonsense already..., it's time to deal with reality.

You quote 2 Tim 2:26
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." Taken captive "at his will". This also applies to believers. We can be hammered in the ground and not even realize it.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Wow! You really think that 98% of the membership of the church you attend is lost and hell bound? Eek

If there are only 10 in membership in a church...well, there ain't even a whole person therein saved, lolzzzzzzz!