Are you a dichotomist or a trichotomist?

[JesusFan]

So when Paul said we were dead in tresspasses and sins how were we dead? Was our Body dead? Was our soul dead? Was our Spirit dead? If man was created in dichotomy there would be no spirit and no spiritual death. But if man was created as trichotomy then man is born dead spiritually and his spirit is regenerated. Keeping in mind death means seperation, we are spiritually seperated from God at birth, covered of course until we come to the knowledge of good and evil, until we realize we are sinners in need of Salvation. When we come to that point and everyone does then we become accountable to trust Christ and be Spiritually regenerated or to stay seperated from God spiritually until we die in unbelief then one would die physically and suffer the second death which is seperation from God for eternity.

This is a big problem for those holding to man being 2 aspects, as we know that ALL men are in Adam, and ALL are declared by God to be spiritually dead in our sins...

That is the very basis of us being seperated from God, and since we can still breath and think, must be another aspect of us that is "dead!"

We can still think and can breath, but still sepertated by God, and unable to "connect" back with unless our spirits are reborn in Christ!

 

[webdog]

So when Paul said we were dead in tresspasses and sins how were we dead? Was our Body dead? Was our soul dead? Was our Spirit dead? If man was created in dichotomy there would be no spirit and no spiritual death. But if man was created as trichotomy then man is born dead spiritually and his spirit is regenerated. Keeping in mind death means seperation, we are spiritually seperated from God at birth, covered of course until we come to the knowledge of good and evil, until we realize we are sinners in need of Salvation. When we come to that point and everyone does then we become accountable to trust Christ and be Spiritually regenerated or to stay seperated from God spiritually until we die in unbelief then one would die physically and suffer the second death which is seperation from God for eternity.

You do realize regeneration means to generate again? If man is created / born spiritually dead there is no regeneration (making alive AGAIN) there is just making alive.

 

[revmwc]

You do realize regeneration means to generate again? If man is created / born spiritually dead there is no regeneration (making alive AGAIN) there is just making alive.

Paul said the natural man cannot understand the tings of God they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because why? They are Spiritually discerned. Since Paul also said that we were dead in trespasses and sins before we were since then that death would be a spiritual death. Regenration of the seperated Spirit brings us to understand the Spiritual things. Thus we are born unable to understand spiritual things, seperated from Spiritual understanding and hterefore Spiritually dead until regenration of the Spirit occurs giving us Spiritual discernment.

 

[convicted1]

Which of the following do you believe about the nature of Man:

1. Dichotomy = Man is essentially 2 parts: spiritual & physical. The soul and spirit mentioned in the bible are 2 words for the same thing.

2. Trichotomy = Man is essentially 3 parts: Body, Soul, & Spirit. Spirit and soul are 2 separate things.

Also, with your answers, try to give any resulting consequences that your view may have on other areas of life or study. (either a good consequence that results from your view, or something bad that would come up if one accepted the other view). So we'll try to take the discussion beyond the point of: "Oh, that's interesting that we have two, three, four parts to us...oh well!" Say why it matters :thumbsup:

I, for one, am in the dichotomous camp. I believe that when it gives mention of body, soul, and Spirit, I think the Spirit mentioned is the Holy Ghost. When breathed the breath of life into Adam, he became a living soul, not a living soul and spirit.

 

[convicted1]

Paul said the natural man cannot understand the tings of God they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because why? They are Spiritually discerned.

You are correct. That which is born of flesh, is flesh, that which is born of Spirit, is Spirit. Our soul IS a spirit, not a soul AND spirit. That's like saying you have a car and an auto, when in fact, either noun describes the same exact thing. The soul is a spirit, and that spirit is a soul.

Since Paul also said that we were dead in trespasses and sins before we were since then that death would be a spiritual death.

We are dead in OUR sins and trespasses, and not those that were handed down from our parents. If we are created spiritually dead, then that places sin squarely on God. Our souls come from Him, so if we are born spiritually dead(seperated from God due to sins), then our sins came from Him. I, for one, do not advocate that theology.

Regenration of the seperated Spirit brings us to understand the Spiritual things.

Correct. But we are not born in this state. When God comes to us and shows us how vile we really are, it is then, and only then, that we are seperated from God(die spiritually) due to OUR sins. It is then that we must be REgenerated(brought BACK to life).

Thus we are born unable to understand spiritual things, seperated from Spiritual understanding and hterefore Spiritually dead until regenration of the Spirit occurs giving us Spiritual discernment.

Again, REgeneration means to be REgenerated. Anything with the prefix "RE", means again. REdo means to do again. Relocate means to move(change living quarters again). Regenerate means to bring BACK to life. To bring BACK to life, one must have had life to begin with. Apostle Paul plainly stated that he was alive once without the Law.

But to get back on track, we are two part being; boul and soul/spirit.

 

[webdog]

Paul said the natural man cannot understand the tings of God they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because why? They are Spiritually discerned. Since Paul also said that we were dead in trespasses and sins before we were since then that death would be a spiritual death. Regenration of the seperated Spirit brings us to understand the Spiritual things. Thus we are born unable to understand spiritual things, seperated from Spiritual understanding and hterefore Spiritually dead until regenration of the Spirit occurs giving us Spiritual discernment.

You did not address the very thing I was getting across which is regeneration's meaning to generate again...not initially or for the first time.

The natural man passage simply means the flesh cannot discern spirit (further proof for the dichotomy view). When even a believer (like the Corinthians Paul was addressing in that passage) relies on the fleshly logic and order they resort to being in a natural state.

 

[revmwc]

You did not address the very thing I was getting across which is regeneration's meaning to generate again...not initially or for the first time.

The natural man passage simply means the flesh cannot discern spirit (further proof for the dichotomy view). When even a believer (like the Corinthians Paul was addressing in that passage) relies on the fleshly logic and order they resort to being in a natural state.

I see you missed it "Spiritually dead until regeneration of the Spirit occurs giving us Spiritual discernment." The Spirit which is seperated from God needs to be regenerated in order for us to understand the things of the Spirit.

We are born in a state of seperation from God Spiritually, is the spirit dead as in non-existent not in that sense no. Is the spirit seperate from understanding Spiritual things Paul says yes and that is death. DEath meaning seperation we are seperated from Spiritual understanding at birth, we are also dead to communication at birth, we must learn to speak to put words together until we do we a dead to speaking, seperated from the ability to speak. We are dead to walking, we are seperated from the physical ability to walk until we reach the age to know how, so why is it so hard to see that we are seperated from spiritual knowledge and must have a Spirit regenerated, renewed or changed from sepration from Spiritual knowledge to knowing Spiritual truth by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

In fact Paul talks about that very fact the fact that we have a Spirit, Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Proof we are Children of God comes from our spirit being made alive, reborn in the Holy Spirit.
So Paul says we have a spirit, we know we have a body that leaves the soul, Paul answers that too in Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile
it is our soul that doeth evil and our Spirit that the Holy Spirit bears witness with that we are the children of God. Sounds very much like we have a Body, soul and the believer is spiritually alive.

 

[Greektim]

You do realize regeneration means to generate again? If man is created / born spiritually dead there is no regeneration (making alive AGAIN) there is just making alive.

THat is unless we have an incorrect translation of the word. What does it mean if the word actually means "to generate from above"?

 

[12strings]

Thread resurection!

I am resurecting this thread on request from Awaken...as you can see it has degenerated into a debate about regeneraton between calvinists & non-cals...surprise surprise...

...if anyone would like to debate some more about whether man essentially 2 parts, or three...have at it!

 

[Bronconagurski]

I have always leaned both ways on this one. On one hand, soul/spirit seem to be interchangeable sometimes. On the other, the spirit is said to be quickened, but the soul saved. If I had to give an answer, I guess it would be tri.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I am ostensibly a "trichotomist"....which is to say, that there are those unique facets of mankind which are not shared by those same animals which posses the "breath of life"....In Genesis 1:20 God speaks of the nephesh or "breath of life" which signifies the being of "higher" animal forms which have what we might call "soul"....but we should note that they were not directly "made" or "created" in the same sense that man was....If we look closely, we see that God said:
Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly
and
Gen 1:24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
Not Quite so with man....There IS Something different, and how we describe it will inevitably result in some Philosophical categorization no doubt....but God did do something somewhat different with man....rather than the "waters" or the "Earth" "bringing forth" we see that....

Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image,

God "made" the beasts...but God BOTH "made" and "created" man...In his image...the Hebrew terms are different: He both:
Made: `asah
and Created: bara'

Man in his own "image"....
God did not command the "Earth" to "bring him forth" as he did the animals..(although that was the same substance from which he made the animals) see:
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

So, given our passage in Genesis, and these suggestions in Ecclesiastes, I think we have to come to a delineation between what man SHARES with the beasts and what he possesses UNIQUELY that he does NOT share with them...I suppose I would argue that man has a "Tri-partate form" as does the God-head, and that is what separates (at least in part) man from the animal. In other words...those things which are unique to man, which are not shared by the animals which posses "breath" and "life (as soul)" are what constitutes man's "Spirit" and those things are Eternal.

Animals DO have, what we English-speakers might call "soul" but we also have volition, a sense of aesthetics, moral consciousness, and a desire for Divine Society....unlike the animals. Thus, there are those un-shared facets of mankind which separate him and they are ALL what I would consider to be man's "Spiritual" aspects.....
My dichotomist brethren are indeed correct that the words in Hebrew translated as both "soul" and "spirit" are indeed inter-changeable....but that doesn't mean the concept is....after all, the term "concubine" and "wife" are often the same word but the context supplies a different meaning, as does the terms for "virgin" "young woman" and "Soprano"....same word, yes, but the context supplies a different meaning. So I believe it is with "soul" and "spirit". Hebrew does NOT have two differing words...but English does, and for a reason, I think.

 

[awaken]

Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground(this is the body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(this is mans spirit-Prov. 20:27; Zechariah12:20)/ and man became a living soul(this is the soul).

New Test. also agrees with this in 1 Thess.5:23. Heb. 4:12 ...mentions all three.

I will start with this...

 

[Allan]

I have always leaned both ways on this one. On one hand, soul/spirit seem to be interchangeable sometimes. On the other, the spirit is said to be quickened, but the soul saved. If I had to give an answer, I guess it would be tri.

I would say I agree as well.

 

[awaken]

Can someone answer me what is made new at our new birth/salvation?

 

[TCassidy]

I am either a limited trichotomist or an expanded dichotomist.

If a trichotomist, prior to regeneration the spirit is dead and the person consists of body and soul.

If a dichotomist, after regeneration the spirit is alive and (ideally) in control of the soul and body.

 

[12strings]

Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground(this is the body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(this is mans spirit-Prov. 20:27; Zechariah12:20)/ and man became a living soul(this is the soul).

New Test. also agrees with this in 1 Thess.5:23. Heb. 4:12 ...mentions all three.

I will start with this...

1. Gen. 2:7 - the Breathing in from God made the soul, sounds like one thing to me. Prov. 20:27 is not really of any help here.

2. 1 Thess is one of several that mention all three, together, and has been addressed elsewhere.

3. Heb. 4:12 actually mentions FOUR! "12 For wthe word of God is living and xactive, ysharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and adiscerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

...As does Jesus when he reiterates the great commandment: Heart, soul, mind, strength,

 

[awaken]

1. Gen. 2:7 - the Breathing in from God made the soul, sounds like one thing to me. Prov. 20:27 is not really of any help here.

2. 1 Thess is one of several that mention all three, together, and has been addressed elsewhere.

3. Heb. 4:12 actually mentions FOUR! "12 For wthe word of God is living and xactive, ysharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and adiscerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

...As does Jesus when he reiterates the great commandment: Heart, soul, mind, strength,

What part changed at salvation? What was made new?

 

[12strings]

What part changed at salvation? What was made new?

The Soul/Spirit. The body awaits its glorification.

 

[awaken]

The Soul/Spirit. The body awaits its glorification.

I thought the mind/soul was being renewed by the word?

 

[percho]

Can someone answer me what is made new at our new birth/salvation?

I will take a shot based upon these verses speaking as of that which has been conceived, will then be born.

1 John 3:1,2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: (We are presently the conceived Sons of God by the spirit having been given us.) but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (We will then be born) (Presently Jesus and Jesus only is) Col 1:18 the firstborn from the dead. (But when he shall appear we shall be like him, conformed to his image, and then he will be the firstborn of many.) Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren,

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

What is new is that which had been mortal, the living soul, will have put on immortality and that which had been corruptible, the body, will have put on insorruption.

The soul of Jesus was resurrected from Hades, the abode of dead souls and his body was resurrected having not seen corruption being he was three days and three nights dead. He received the sure mercies of David. So says Acts 13:34 and 2:31