Ariz. may require hospitals to check citizenship

[targus]

If you cannot see the difference between a man starving in Mexico and coming here so he can feed his family and murder, then it is you, not I, who is disingenuous.

The fact is that many of the illegal immigrants coming from Mexico do so to sell drugs and are members of criminal gangs.

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, a Doctor is helping a trauma victim, stops, and asked, "Before I can help you, you need to tell me if you are an illegal or not."

How horrible.

BTW, I am not a liberal. I voted for McCain (though, I did not like that he was as liberal as he is), Bush both times, etc. While I disdain the Republican Party, I do so because they hold to liberal policies like this one, playing the nanny state. Or they were just as big of spenders... or they were nation builders, or they were just plain immoral.

I am afraid Christians are more concerned about politics than they are concerned about love. This is the prime example.

You have to remember there are some on the board who consider anyone and any idea liberal if it does not agree with their beliefs.

You are right. There is nothing Christian about this law. It puts doctors, nurses and individuals in terrible positions. If Arizona puts this ill considered proposal into law the best thing hospitals can do is to ignore the law and not ask. I see no reason why a hospital worker abide by an immoral law.

You are also right in that far too many who call themselves Christian are more concerned with politics than with the teaching of Jesus.

 

[targus]

So, a Doctor is helping a trauma victim, stops, and asked, "Before I can help you, you need to tell me if you are an illegal or not."

On what do you base this hypothetical?

Where does the law say that treatment is to be withheld if the person is not in the country legally?

Your argument would carry more weight if it were based on the facts of the situation and not emotional speculation.

 

[freeatlast]

I would disobey this law if I were in the medical field. Just like when doing missions in our country, I am not concerned with whether you are here legally, I want to minister God's Word to you. A doctor should be concerned with the person too.

When I went to the hospital last month, the admissions person asked me "Are you hispanic?" This was a rather strange question. The lady told me they were required by Federal Regulations passed by the Obama Administration to ask that question (I am taking her word on this, I never independently confirmed this story). She was not required to ask if I was any other race, only if I was Hispanic. I do not mind telling her that I am, but she hated the question and felt it was racist at the core. I agree. Let hospitals care for people. Let Churches care for their soul. Yet, don't require me to ask someone their immigration status. I am not your immigration official.

What is next, you want me to wear a patch on my clothing saying that I am Hispanic and properly registered in our country?

I feel this would set a terrible precedent.

Then you you be in rebellion against the Lord. The only command we have is to spread the gospel, not disobey the laws. If the law says don't spread the gospel we still spread it, but we accept the consequences just like the apostles. If the law says that everyone must prove citizenship then that would be the law and there is no biblical command to not obey it. Anything less is rebellion against the Lord and doing satan work not God's.
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

 

[freeatlast]

You have to remember there are some on the board who consider anyone and any idea liberal if it does not agree with their beliefs.

You are right. There is nothing Christian about this law. It puts doctors, nurses and individuals in terrible positions. If Arizona puts this ill considered proposal into law the best thing hospitals can do is to ignore the law and not ask. I see no reason why a hospital worker abide by an immoral law.

You are also right in that far too many who call themselves Christian are more concerned with politics than with the teaching of Jesus.

What you propose is rebellion against God. We are commanded to obey the laws. Your rebellion is made clear by your rejection of God's command. If you are so concerned with the health of these people why are you not selling all you have and giving it to them so they can pay their bill?
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

 

[targus]

Why stop with defrauding to provide health care?

Why not steal from your employer to give the poor food, clothing, shelter, etc?

 

[Ruiz]

The fact is that many of the illegal immigrants coming from Mexico do so to sell drugs and are members of criminal gangs.

Yes, there are some who come over to commit other crimes. Yet, the vast majority are not here committing crimes.

Liken this to guns. There are some who use guns in the committing of crimes. Yet, the vast majority are not using guns to commit crimes. The vast majority come here because their families are starving.

Targus, I will ask you what I have been asking others. Since most rescue missions receive USDA food to help feed the poor, do you think the rescue missions should be required to inquire into the immigration status of everyone they feed?

 

[Ruiz]

Then you you be in rebellion against the Lord. The only command we have is to spread the gospel, not disobey the laws. If the law says don't spread the gospel we still spread it, but we accept the consequences just like the apostles. If the law says that everyone must prove citizenship then that would be the law and there is no biblical command to not obey it. Anything less is rebellion against the Lord and doing satan work not God's.
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

I do not think I would be disobeying God's law. When Corrie Ten Boom disobeyed the laws to hide Jews, was she in rebellion against God? I believe this law to be immoral, making basic needs of people linked to immigration status. I think everyone should be fed, everyone should have clothes, and everyone should get basic health care. I am not for government doing this, but I believe this is a part of charity. As well, I believe government requiring me to ask you your immigration status is wrong. Government should have no authority to demand I ask such questions. I am a consistent conservative in this regards, government has no authority over this issue in my personal life and for them to take this authority is being a nanny.

There is an ancient Christian belief that one area we can disobey governmental laws is when government lacks the authority for that law. I believe this is an overstepping of their authority and thus I can, in good conscience, not obey. Of course, we all acknowledge immoral laws, but most Christians acknowledge the latter. For this reason, I would have deemed it appropriate for people to not obey the Sabbath laws of old because government lacked the authority to enforce this law. They also lack the authority to demand doctors inquire on immigration status.

So, do you believe that rescue missions who receive USDA food (the majority) should be required to inquire into the immigration status of the people they feed?

 

[Ruiz]

On what do you base this hypothetical?

Where does the law say that treatment is to be withheld if the person is not in the country legally?

Your argument would carry more weight if it were based on the facts of the situation and not emotional speculation.

Targus,

Arizona is wanting to require us to ask immigration status before caring for people. This is not emotional, this is a logical outgrowth. In essence, before the good samaritan can be good, according to people on this board, he must ask, "Before I care for you as a person, what is your immigration status?"

No, a good samaritan cares for people first and foremost. That is what the doctor should do... that is what a Christian should do.

 

[targus]

Targus, I will ask you what I have been asking others. Since most rescue missions receive USDA food to help feed the poor, do you think the rescue missions should be required to inquire into the immigration status of everyone they feed?

Apples and oranges. Also I doubt that most rescue missions receive the food from the government. My guess is that most of the food distributed by rescue missions comes from donations - both private and by stores and restaurants.

I am still waiting for someone to show me that the law requires withholding medical care.

So far there has been a whole lot of emtional protestation about something that doesn't even exist.

 

[Crabtownboy]

How is a person supposed to prove they are legal? Say a person from Illinois shows up at a hospital in Arizona. Their belly is really hurting. Who is to determine if it is life-threatening or not? How is the person to prove quickly they are legal?

This is a very immoral proposal.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Apples and oranges. Also I doubt that most rescue missions receive the food from the government. My guess is that most of the food distributed by rescue missions comes from donations - both private and by stores and restaurants.

I am still waiting for someone to show me that the law requires withholding medical care.

So far there has been a whole lot of emtional protestation about something that doesn't even exist.

Some Christians would rather throw dishonest accusations around than deal with the facts. Typical of those who "think" with their heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[targus]

As I thought the bill does not say that hospitals are to withhold treatment...


"The Bill is known as Senate Bill1405, and it would require hospitals, when admitting non-emergency cases, to confirm that a person seeking care is a U.S. citizen or in the country legally. In emergency cases where the patient isn't here legally, the hospital would be required to call immigration authorities after the treatment is done.

Hospitals in non-emergency situations would also be required to contact federal immigration authorities, but they would have more apparent discretion about whether to treat illegal immigrants."

http://www.examiner.com/celebrity-i...bill-to-check-immigration-status-at-hospitals


Why does it seem that those who wear their compassion on their sleeve are always the same ones that fasely accuse others of lacking in compassion?

All that self-rightous indignation over nothing.

 

[matt wade]

Thanks for the info targus. In that light this bill seems perfectly acceptable. If people want to seek medical treatment on the taxpayers dollar, then let them prove they are eligible to receive it. If they are illegal, let's fix them up (in emergency cases) and send them back to Mexico. My understanding is that Mexico has subsidized health care. Let them get their treatment there.

 

[matt wade]

Oh, and to those of you that shelter illegals in our country and claim it is for "missions", let me know where you are doing your missions. I'll be happy to have you corral everyone together so I can send INS over.

 

[Ruiz]

Apples and oranges. Also I doubt that most rescue missions receive the food from the government. My guess is that most of the food distributed by rescue missions comes from donations - both private and by stores and restaurants.

I am still waiting for someone to show me that the law requires withholding medical care.

So far there has been a whole lot of emtional protestation about something that doesn't even exist.

Targus,

I have worked for/with three rescue missions. All three accepted USDA food. One stopped accepting this food because the government said they could not share the Gospel (this occurred in the 90's and made headlines in World Magazine). I believe that mission has begun accepting USDA food again.

So, this does exist.

Again, answer the question, those who accept USDA food, should we require them to verify immigration status before they serve someone food?

We are requiring doctors to ask about immigration status before treating patients, I think it is the same thing.

 

[Ruiz]

As I thought the bill does not say that hospitals are to withhold treatment...


"The Bill is known as Senate Bill1405, and it would require hospitals, when admitting non-emergency cases, to confirm that a person seeking care is a U.S. citizen or in the country legally. In emergency cases where the patient isn't here legally, the hospital would be required to call immigration authorities after the treatment is done.

Hospitals in non-emergency situations would also be required to contact federal immigration authorities, but they would have more apparent discretion about whether to treat illegal immigrants."

http://www.examiner.com/celebrity-i...bill-to-check-immigration-status-at-hospitals


Why does it seem that those who wear their compassion on their sleeve are always the same ones that fasely accuse others of lacking in compassion?

All that self-rightous indignation over nothing.

The issue is the same and I would not think doctors were as calloused as politicians. In essence, it is immoral require a doctor to ask immigration status as a condition of treatment. This is not his job and he should not have his rights violated by mandating speech in order for treatment.

Still immoral.

 

[Ruiz]

Some Christians would rather throw dishonest accusations around than deal with the facts. Typical of those who "think" with their heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is not a dishonest accusation. this is real life. Fact, most rescue missions do receive some sort of USDA funds/food. Secondly, would you require rescue missions inquiring on the immigration status of those they feed before feeding them?

That is not an accusation, that is real life. Requiring me to inquire on immigration status is wrong. I would not do such.

 

[Ruiz]

Thanks for the info targus. In that light this bill seems perfectly acceptable. If people want to seek medical treatment on the taxpayers dollar, then let them prove they are eligible to receive it. If they are illegal, let's fix them up (in emergency cases) and send them back to Mexico. My understanding is that Mexico has subsidized health care. Let them get their treatment there.

Matt,

Do you care more for the law or for the people?

throughout history Christians have placed people above law. We have suffered when law said something that trampled on people. Whether this was slavery, the holocaust, or the underground church in China.

To require someone to inquire as the basis of health care is wrong. Care for the person. Who cares where they came from, have compassion.

 

[targus]

I have worked for/with three rescue missions. All three accepted USDA food. One stopped accepting this food because the government said they could not share the Gospel (this occurred in the 90's and made headlines in World Magazine). I believe that mission has begun accepting USDA food again.

So does that mean that those rescue missions continued to accept the food and share the Gospel even though it was a condition of accepting the food not to do so?

Again, answer the question, those who accept USDA food, should we require them to verify immigration status before they serve someone food?

We are requiring doctors to ask about immigration status before treating patients, I think it is the same thing.

If the food is given to the rescue missions with the condition that they inquire as to immigration status then they should either inquire as to immigration status or not accept the food.

If a hospital does not wish to comply with the law to check immigration status then they should not take the tax dollars that keep them in business.