Arizona Hospital Immigration Bill Pulled at Last Minute

[Ruiz]

I haven't said what I would do. Can you simply answer the question, rather than avoiding it?

If I can't afford to support my family, is it ok for me to break into your house and steal your things? Would you have compassion and let me steal your things?

It is not okay, but I am not addressing an illegal immigrant. I am addressing Americans. Should we who are Christians show grace to them? Shouldn't we care for their plight?

I think America, the land where God has shed His grace upon us, should also show brotherhood to them.

 

[matt wade]

It is not okay, but I am not addressing an illegal immigrant. I am addressing Americans. Should we who are Christians show grace to them? Shouldn't we care for their plight?

I think America, the land where God has shed His grace upon us, should also show brotherhood to them.

So, it's OK for a mexican to come here illegally and steal from all of us, but it's not ok for me as an individual to steal directly from you? In one case you say we should show grace, yet in the other you don't think we should? Why is your position inconsistent? Do you pay taxes? Maybe the illegals aren't stealing from you because you are one of the lucky that doesn't actually pay into our system here in America?

 

[Ruiz]

Grace is given by God who come to Him one single way. Through Jesus only. Of course you completely ignore the danger involved in unfettered illegal immigration. I am suggesting that they come into this country through legal and responsible means only. We could always show grace to everyone who breaks the law. But is that helpful? and why should illegal aliens be lifted up higher than everyone else?

Most of these people can't come the legal ways because our laws make a poor person unlikely to get into our country legally. I met a man who tried to get into our country legally three times, but denied each time because he has "nothing to offer us." He is poor. Yet, to prevent his family from starving, he came over anyway.

Should we have grace on such people? They want to stay here, they are asking us to stay. Yes, God has grace insofar as salvation, but we can show mercy and grace in another way. By giving good gifts to those who cannot offer us anything else.

My fear is that we either want them to go back to a horrible lifestyle... or we care for them here.

BTW, if they were here legally, it would not be grace. Grace acknowledges their wrong, but cares anyway. Sorta like the woman caught in adultery.

 

[Ruiz]

So, it's OK for a mexican to come here illegally and steal from all of us, but it's not ok for me as an individual to steal directly from you? In one case you say we should show grace, yet in the other you don't think we should? Why is your position inconsistent? Do you pay taxes? Maybe the illegals aren't stealing from you because you are one of the lucky that doesn't actually pay into our system here in America?

I didn't say it was okay. But I am not addressing illegals. If I were addressing illegals, I would tell them they have an obligation to go back. However, I am addressing you. I think we, Christians who have been given grace, should give grace to them. They want to stay and I think the Christian ethic simply says that in light of God's tremendous grace, we should also show grace.

Would you not agree that this is the teaching of the Bible?

 

[Ruiz]

I'm saying that our government is allowing people who are in this country illegally to steal from us. No matter how you slice that, it comes up oppression.

I have had the dubious honor of taking advantage of our health care system lately. One overnight stay was $20K. Why? Because of those who don't pay their bills.

My girl got her lip split one day, and when I went to the emergency room, I waited two hours because of Miguel, Jose, Sophia, Gustavo, Maria, Jesus, etc. who were there with runny noses getting medical attention for free.

Thieves.

(Of course, after two hours there was no more bleeding. So I took my girl, marched to the desk and said, "I obviously overreacted to this injury. I'm leaving, and I'd better not get a bill." Then we left. Her lip healed up nicely on its own, BTW.)

And you sound bitter because of it. Now, here is where our Christianity comes in... forgive them, love them, and have grace upon them. Let this be a means for you to show the true love of God... God's grace.

BTW, we are so blessed that we have such good health care that we can complain about it in such a manner. God has been gracious to America.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I didn't say it was okay. But I am not addressing illegals. If I were addressing illegals, I would tell them they have an obligation to go back. However, I am addressing you. I think we, Christians who have been given grace, should give grace to them. They want to stay and I think the Christian ethic simply says that in light of God's tremendous grace, we should also show grace.

Would you not agree that this is the teaching of the Bible?

No. Not at all. If you and the Bible had the same message, we would hear the "go and sin no more" part out of both of you.

Nowhere in scripture dfoes it say to give criminals a pass. Quite the opposite, nations are commanded to be good stewards of their gifts. NOWHERE does Jesus break O/T law.

 

[Ruiz]

No. Not at all. If you and the Bible had the same message, we would hear the "go and sin no more" part out of both of you.

Bro Curtis,

Mercy was first, the command to sin no more came after the mercy was delivered. As well, even after I have been forgiven of my sins, I still have sinned... but God has forgiven me more than 7 times 70... but has continued to be a wealth of mercy.

I am sorry you do not have it in your heart to forgive. But forgiveness is the heart of Christianity. Oh, what mercy is given to us... to such a deep extent I would be foolish not to share it with others.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Don't tell me what's in my heart. You know nothing of forgiveness. You should stop berating others, until you realize just what sin cost.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I pray the Baby-boomer entitlement mentality, and those who promote it, along with all other manner of unGodliness, go back to hippie hell where it came from.

 

[Ruiz]

Don't tell me what's in my heart. You know nothing of forgiveness. You should stop berating others, until you realize just what sin cost.

I am not berating others... I am simply calling for forgiveness.

You are right, I do not understand what sin costs. Yet, God does. He died for our sins. It was God, not me, who commanded us to forgive. It was God who gave the illustration of the servant who would not forgive someone of his little debt after being forgiven of his great debt. This same God said, "forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us."

Yet, the most striking words came from Jesus, the great forgiver, "Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”" (Matthew 18:32-35)

I don't understand the debt of my sin. But I know that God was gracious and He commanded me to forgive. If you can't forgive, you may want to spend time with God and ask His help.

 

[Aaron]

And you sound bitter because of it. Now, here is where our Christianity comes in... forgive them, love them, and have grace upon them. Let this be a means for you to show the true love of God... God's grace.

BTW, we are so blessed that we have such good health care that we can complain about it in such a manner. God has been gracious to America.

Save the sermon for Sunday. Your amigos are public enemies. God's ministers of vengeance, the state, need to wield the sword and drive them back over the border.

 

[Ruiz]

Save the sermon for Sunday. Your amigos are public enemies. God's ministers of vengeance, the state, need to wield the sword and drive them back over the border.

Aaron,

I believe Christianity is for all of life, not just Sundays. I reject the principles of the enlightenment... I believe God transcends everything and His principles remain true. Sorry that you seem to want only God's Word spoken on Sundays and in Church, that saddens me.

As well, in our government, we are a Republic, and policy is shaped by us. We can change the tide of the debate. Yes, the government does keep laws. I am simply asking us to have grace on them. Let us have grace... I think this is the most Christian thing we can do. Let us live up to the name "Christian" and be Christ like by showing grace.

Let us live our Christianity and be doers of the Word. Let us show forth grace on people who need this grace.

 

[matt wade]

I didn't say it was okay. But I am not addressing illegals. If I were addressing illegals, I would tell them they have an obligation to go back. However, I am addressing you. I think we, Christians who have been given grace, should give grace to them. They want to stay and I think the Christian ethic simply says that in light of God's tremendous grace, we should also show grace.

Would you not agree that this is the teaching of the Bible?

Based upon your statement's I would expect you to show grace to the thief that breaks into your house and steals all you have. You should not call the police on them and you should not demand your items back. You need to show grace. Would you agree with that?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I pray the Baby-boomer entitlement mentality, and those who promote it, along with all other manner of unGodliness, go back to hippie hell where it came from.

I truly believe there will be a lot of folks in hell who did what they were told, and looked into the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Ruiz]

Based upon your statement's I would expect you to show grace to the thief that breaks into your house and steals all you have. You should not call the police on them and you should not demand your items back. You need to show grace. Would you agree with that?

I do not know your point, but that is not what Jesus is saying. First, I never said you "need" to show grace. Grace is just that, Grace. Secondly, I am not saying that there is not justice.

What I am saying is that people who come here because they are starving in other places, that we have grace upon them instead of sending them back to their country.

I understand you do not want to show grace to them. Yet, please don't take what I am saying out of context. I am calling on Christians to have grace in this situation. I am calling for us to sympathize with their peril, to care for the orphans and those who have nothing. What most of them want is a decent job and to live without fear.

I am asking you to have grace. Why are you so defensive about having a little bit of grace?

 

[Ruiz]

I truly believe there will be a lot of folks in hell who did what they were told, and looked into the teachings of Jesus.

Curtis,

So, you believe that what I am asking is not found in the Bible? Are you saying that I am taking Scripture out of context?

If I am, please show me where I am taking it out of context. Please, I ask you, show me.

Yet, if I am right, would you agree that we should consider having grace upon them?

And why are you so resistant to having grace upon them? What have they done that compares to our own sins?

 

[matt wade]

I do not know your point, but that is not what Jesus is saying. First, I never said you "need" to show grace. Grace is just that, Grace. Secondly, I am not saying that there is not justice.

What I am saying is that people who come here because they are starving in other places, that we have grace upon them instead of sending them back to their country.

I understand you do not want to show grace to them. Yet, please don't take what I am saying out of context. I am calling on Christians to have grace in this situation. I am calling for us to sympathize with their peril, to care for the orphans and those who have nothing. What most of them want is a decent job and to live without fear.

I am asking you to have grace. Why are you so defensive about having a little bit of grace?

Your attempt at twisting my postings will not work. I have not commented on whether or not I would show "grace" to illegals. You have no basis to say that I "do not want to show grace to them". That is simply something you have fabricated in your mind.

I'll ask you once again, but somehow I think you'll dodge the question like you continue to do.

If a starving person broke into your home and stole your stuff, would you show them grace by not turning them in to the authorities?

You say you don't understand my point, but we all know that you do. My point is very plain. You just continue to avoid the question because you know you can't answer it honestly and then still stick with your original argument.

 

[Ruiz]

Your attempt at twisting my postings will not work. I have not commented on whether or not I would show "grace" to illegals. You have no basis to say that I "do not want to show grace to them". That is simply something you have fabricated in your mind.

I'll ask you once again, but somehow I think you'll dodge the question like you continue to do.

If a starving person broke into your home and stole your stuff, would you show them grace by not turning them in to the authorities?

You say you don't understand my point, but we all know that you do. My point is very plain. You just continue to avoid the question because you know you can't answer it honestly and then still stick with your original argument.

I did answer the question... above. I also showed the difference in situations.

Now, if someone broke into my house, I would have them arrested. That is to protect my family immediately from an immediate and unknown threat. If someone broke into my home, the immediate concern is the protection of my family. Yet, could I forgive them? Yes! Would I wish to reach out to their family and help them get food? Yes! In fact, there is a ministry that works with inmates and victims of their crimes to help bring about reconciliation. The results are often that those who have gone through this reconciliation and been forgiven are less likely to be put back in jail than those who don't go through the process. BTW, if someone broke into my house, I do not think I would know they were starving at home or if they were high on drugs. Thus, I would protect my family first. The information on them starving is information I would only find out later. Yet, can I forgive? Yes!

So, answer my question, will you join me in calling for grace to the illegals? Will you? You said you didn't answer the question, so will you answer it now. Join me in calling for grace on illegals and allowing them to be forgiven and to remain legally.

Or, do you not want to answer my question?

 

[matt wade]

I did answer the question... above. I also showed the difference in situations.

Now, if someone broke into my house, I would have them arrested. That is to protect my family immediately from an immediate and unknown threat. If someone broke into my home, the immediate concern is the protection of my family. Yet, could I forgive them? Yes! Would I wish to reach out to their family and help them get food? Yes! In fact, there is a ministry that works with inmates and victims of their crimes to help bring about reconciliation. The results are often that those who have gone through this reconciliation and been forgiven are less likely to be put back in jail than those who don't go through the process. BTW, if someone broke into my house, I do not think I would know they were starving at home or if they were high on drugs. Thus, I would protect my family first. The information on them starving is information I would only find out later. Yet, can I forgive? Yes!

So, you are a hypocrite. In the case of illegals, you expect us to ignore that they are illegal, and "show them grace". Yet when a starving person steals from you, you'll have them arrested! You say you will minister to the person after they are in jail. Why can't the illegal be sent back to their country and ministered to there? Again, you are a hypocrite.

So, answer my question, will you join me in calling for grace to the illegals? Will you? You said you didn't answer the question, so will you answer it now. Join me in calling for grace on illegals and allowing them to be forgiven and to remain legally.

Or, do you not want to answer my question?

I will answer your question. I will not show your kind of "grace". You define grace for illegals as forgetting they are illegal and allowing them to continue living in this country illegally.

I will show grace to them by continuing (pro tip: that means I already am) to minister to them in their country. I actively support missionaries in Mexico and other Central/South American countries. I do all I can to help these people live better lives in their country. I will do all I can to help those that want to come to this country legally. My mother was a legal immigrant to this country, so I certainly know the value of legal immigration. I will do all I can to oppose illegal immigrants that come to this country.

 

[Ruiz]

So, you are a hypocrite. In the case of illegals, you expect us to ignore that they are illegal, and "show them grace". Yet when a starving person steals from you, you'll have them arrested! You say you will minister to the person after they are in jail. Why can't the illegal be sent back to their country and ministered to there? Again, you are a hypocrite.



I will answer your question. I will not show your kind of "grace". You define grace for illegals as forgetting they are illegal and allowing them to continue living in this country illegally.

I will show grace to them by continuing (pro tip: that means I already am) to minister to them in their country. I actively support missionaries in Mexico and other Central/South American countries. I do all I can to help these people live better lives in their country. I will do all I can to help those that want to come to this country legally. My mother was a legal immigrant to this country, so I certainly know the value of legal immigration. I will do all I can to oppose illegal immigrants that come to this country.

In other words, you won't have grace on illegals. You think a little money to missions is all the grace you should give.

I hope you never need great grace. If you were to be given the grace by which you have shown, you would get none either.

BTW, my mom came here legally. Most of these people would not be allowed here legally because we look on "importance" of people over need. That is what America has been about, taking the weak people and caring for them. That is who we are, and that is why I love America. Unfortunately, Republicans are not showing the America that I love, but showing bitterness and harshness wanting to send people back where they will starve. I don't know if you can get more cold hearted.

We once said:

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Now we say, "Get out and go home and starve to death, we don't care."

God said, "Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'"

I think the least of these today are illegals.