Arizona Hospital Immigration Bill Pulled at Last Minute

[mandym]

We have an unemployment rate pushing 10%. There's no reason why the businesses can't hire persons authorized to work in the U.S. It's the illegals that are causing economic issues.

In construction alone prior to the rise in unemployment wages had dropped because of illegal aliens.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

In construction alone prior to the rise in unemployment wages had dropped because of illegal aliens.

Our entire economic system is a race to the bottom. Illegal aliens are only a part of the problem. We need to create a new economic order that rewards people for their labor and treats them as humans created in God's image instead of pawns in the capitalist system that is destroying our Republic.

 

[Crabtownboy]

We have an unemployment rate pushing 10%. There's no reason why the businesses can't hire persons authorized to work in the U.S. It's the illegals that are causing economic issues.

The problem is not your suggestion and I agree that, on the surface, is a good answer. However, the problem, according to the paper is, that many Americans refuse to take the jobs that were mentioned. Thus, the owners look for people who are willing to work those jobs. The owners are often put in a very difficult situation, basically go out of business or break the law by hiring illegal aliens.

Now, if you really want the illegal aliens to go home you have to make it so painful to business owners to hire illegals that they will not do so. Now if this happens you can expect many to go out of business and for prices to rise dramatically.

If you are really concerned about American jobs stop buying at WalMart and other places that sell nothing produced in America. Of course you will end up naked as I do not believe you can find clothing manufactured in America.

It is not a simply, easy to solve issue.

 

[Ruiz]

I will make one more attempt to invite you to address the very real danger in letting illegal aliens in of whom we know nothing about. This will be my last attempt. If you still refuse to address it I will then extend you the grace on this subject. God Bless

You are making a statement that I never addressed. Did I ever said that we should continue to let people in without knowing anything about them? No, I said that we should have grace on people that are here. Two different scenarios. You are advocating a policy, I am advocating a mere ethic.

 

[Ruiz]

So tell me what is the difference between robbing a bank and infiltrating this country illegally? In both cases the law has been broken.

What you are 'asking' is to ignore the law.

Arbo,

Both situations a law has been violated. As well, i am not asking for a law to be ignored. God did not ignore His law to forgive us. Grace doesn't ignore law, but it acknowledges law but sacrificially forgives.

When God forgives, He is not merely ignoring wrongful behavior. He is acknowledging wrongful behavior and choosing to have Grace.

I am calling for grace upon a people who came to our land because they are hurting in their own. Just like Christ forgiving me of my sins, I deserved the curse of the law and death, but Christ gave me life because of His Grace.

 

[Ruiz]

Don't forget that grace was PAID for by His Son. It did NOT cost nothing.

If you read a previous post on this subject, this is my exact point. Some have argued that such grace would be costly to us. From an economic perspective I disagree but even if true I acknowledge that grace will cost us something. Using the illustration of England freeing the slaves, I demonstrated that ethical decisions are often costly, but we should make those decisions not upon economics but upon our Christian Character.

 

[Arbo]

Ruiz- A few questions:

1. Why do you suppose we have immigration laws?

2. Is your policy of 'grace' fair to those immigrants who played by the rules and came to this country legally?

3. What message does it send if the law is not enforced, and do you honestly think ignoring immigration law is good for society?

I can respect your emphasis on 'grace', but you don't seem to want to address the subject of accoutability and the rule of law.

 

[Ruiz]

Ruiz- A few questions:

1. Why do you suppose we have immigration laws?

I am not for getting rid of laws on immigration. I, though, think we should totally rewrite our current laws and policies to ensure that we do not discriminate against people who have nothing and offer us nothing except someone willing to contribute to America.

Immigration laws are designed to protect us from real, overblown, and imaginary threats. For the most part, with very loose borders we should be seeing more problems. Our greatest problems are not illegals in this country, our greatest problems were contributed by those from the USA.

Traditionally, conservatives were for more open borders, more free trade, and encouraged immigration. Unfortunately, we seem to want to limit it more. Immigration is a reason today we are great today and I believe should be encouraged far beyond what our current laws state.

2. Is your policy of 'grace' fair to those immigrants who played by the rules and came to this country legally?

Grace is not about fairness. If I were to get what was fair to me, then God would send me to hell. Grace is about Grace upon the undeserved. God addressed the idea of fairness in one of his parables. There were workers who were hired for such a wage to work in the field. As the day progressed the master hired more men to do the work. When the earlier workers saw that the later workers got the same amount of money as the earlier workers, they complained. Yet, Jesus was clear that they received what was promised to them and this was just.

As well, it would be just to the previous legal immigrants but gracious to the others.

3. What message does it send if the law is not enforced, and do you honestly think ignoring immigration law is good for society?

It sends the message that we sometimes have grace on people. Yes, I do believe grace is often good for society. As a Christian, God's grace has been good for me. Would you agree, Grace is one of the greatest goods for society? As well, I think giving grace is one of the greatest things we can do for our spiritual development.

Only the Pharisees didn't like it when God had grace... I suspect some would not like it today for much of the same reasons.

I can respect your emphasis on 'grace', but you don't seem to want to address the subject of accoutability and the rule of law.

I acknowledge the rule of law or else this would not be grace. I also acknowledge accountability or else Grace would be useless. Because there is accountability and law means grace is that much greater.

My point here is not to directly address illegal immigrants either. If I were to do that, my approach would be much different and encourage them to recognize our laws and accountability. In encouraging American citizens to grace, my point is to address people in our own country to consider and embrace a grace centered ethic in this situation.

I believe we should have grace.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Ah yes, the inevitable "Pharisee" comparison. We MUST be Pharisees.

Ruiz, this kind of hateful judgemental self-piousness puts you in some wonderful company, here. Enjoy it. I'll not waste any more time with you.

 

[matt wade]

Matt,

Am I wrong in my assessment, Matt? I assumed you have not personally seen this dramatic poverty, because I could not imagine after seeing dire poverty forcing anyone to return to that situation.

Both my wife and I have worked with tribal people. Both our situations were limited and situations have prevented us from going full time. We have prayed many times about going over as full time missionaries. I, oftentimes, regret not going overseas. Yet, God has closed many of those doors at this time.

God has shown me that grace can be given to people who suffer. Grace is glorious and I think this is at the heart of Christianity.

So you've done nothing...just what I thought.

 

[mandym]

Our entire economic system is a race to the bottom. Illegal aliens are only a part of the problem. We need to create a new economic order that rewards people for their labor and treats them as humans created in God's image instead of pawns in the capitalist system that is destroying our Republic.

Ah....anti-capitalism. I thought maybe had some credibility. God Bless

 

[mandym]

You are making a statement that I never addressed. Did I ever said that we should continue to let people in without knowing anything about them? No, I said that we should have grace on people that are here. Two different scenarios. You are advocating a policy, I am advocating a mere ethic.

Just because they are already here does not mean the threat is removed. Who are these that are already here? We do not know and it is completely unreasonable to "assume" they are safe. If they are safe and want to work and contribute to the US then they need to go home and come back the right way so that we can know about them.

 

[Ruiz]

So you've done nothing...just what I thought.

Matt,

I have worked with tribal people, I think i clearly stated that. As well, I married a woman who was a missionary to tribal people who happen to come back to the states to raise money for full time ministry. She was specifically trained for tribal ministry.

So, saying "nothing" is a lie. Granted, I am not living with them today, but I have worked with them in the past.

It would help if you read my posts. I think that would make the conversation constructive rather than political.

 

[Ruiz]

Ah yes, the inevitable "Pharisee" comparison. We MUST be Pharisees.

Ruiz, this kind of hateful judgemental self-piousness puts you in some wonderful company, here. Enjoy it. I'll not waste any more time with you.

Curtis,

Thanks for calling me hateful. I am amazed that people who have no arguments tend to attack the person. Yes, I think grace is wonderful and I think those who even reject the idea of grace to be more along the line of a Pharisee. However, to call me hateful and self pious, that is more judgmental than my statement.

Yet, if you can, find it in your heart to have grace even in this situation.

 

[mandym]

Curtis,

Thanks for calling me hateful. I am amazed that people who have no arguments tend to attack the person. Yes, I think grace is wonderful and I think those who even reject the idea of grace to be more along the line of a Pharisee. However, to call me hateful and self pious, that is more judgmental than my statement.

Yet, if you can, find it in your heart to have grace even in this situation.

You are the one who pulled the "pharisee" card. Which is equivalent to pulling the "Nazi" card or the "race" card. Regardless of which one it is that gets pulled once it is done it proves a lack of any real argument and the one pulling those cards has lost the debate. And it was not an attack as it was just to address your attack by pulling the "pharisee" card. And I concur that it was hateful.

 

[matt wade]

Matt,

I have worked with tribal people, I think i clearly stated that. As well, I married a woman who was a missionary to tribal people who happen to come back to the states to raise money for full time ministry. She was specifically trained for tribal ministry.

So, saying "nothing" is a lie. Granted, I am not living with them today, but I have worked with them in the past.

It would help if you read my posts. I think that would make the conversation constructive rather than political.

You are doing nothing to help them today. You stand up and tell the rest of us that we aren't Christian enough and that we don't show enough "grace", yet you do nothing to help them today. You are a hypocrite. Maybe you should spend more time showing grace to illegals instead of spending that time at Toastmasters? What's more important to you, Toastmasters or showing grace to these people?

 

[carpro]

Our entire economic system is a race to the bottom. Illegal aliens are only a part of the problem. We need to create a new economic order that rewards people for their labor and treats them as humans created in God's image instead of pawns in the capitalist system that is destroying our Republic.

I should have seen this coming, but I didn't.

At your tender young age , what made you hate your country so much?

The "capitalist system" you so despise rewards initiative, risk taking entreprenuership, and hard work and it made this nation the greatest on earth.

I shudder to think what embicilic "system" you would propose to replace it with. Sounds like you want one that rewards simple existence and has nothing at all to do with "labor". We already have one that rewards "labor" and you don't like it.

 

[Arbo]

Our entire economic system is a race to the bottom. Illegal aliens are only a part of the problem. We need to create a new economic order that rewards people for their labor and treats them as humans created in God's image instead of pawns in the capitalist system that is destroying our Republic.

It is the capitalist system that allows people to be rewarded for their labor.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

At your tender young age , what made you hate your country so much?

I don't. That's why I want to fix it. I know the fact that not everyone agrees with your views causes you much vexation, but under the Constitution and laws of the United States and the State of Florida I have the right to hold and propagate my opinions.

 

[just-want-peace]

I don't. That's why I want to fix it. I know the fact that not everyone agrees with your views causes you much vexation, but under the Constitution and laws of the United States and the State of Florida I have the right to hold and propagate my opinions.

Paul, you would get a much better response for your posts if you refrained from the old liberal line of claiming "rights" when an explanation would serve far better.

Might not agree with you - probably wouldn't - BUT, at least you will have offered something to discuss.

Defensively claiming a "right" that has not been denied you, just makes it appear that you are in a corner and stalling for time to decide why you don't agree with -- whatever.