Arizona Hospital Immigration Bill Pulled at Last Minute

[Ruiz]

So, you are a hypocrite. In the case of illegals, you expect us to ignore that they are illegal, and "show them grace". Yet when a starving person steals from you, you'll have them arrested! You say you will minister to the person after they are in jail. Why can't the illegal be sent back to their country and ministered to there? Again, you are a hypocrite.

BTW, this is not hypocrisy. Having someone arrested but willing to forgive is not hypocritical. The difference is that I am willing to forgive and want to forgive. You do not seem to even want to forgive. I see a stark difference. One is an instance. A person breaks in and I have to make choices. I have to protect my family. I have to protect others.

Yet, when the heat of the situation has ceased I am willing to forgive.

You asked if I was willing to forgive. I said, "yes."

You are not willing to forgive. Sentencing people to starve, you would rather send people away.

I am willing to forgive.

BTW, you didn't read my note. How in the world would I know a person who broke into my house is having a family at home starving? Your situation is nothing more than a pharisaical question which was meant to "catch" me. If I said "Yes, I will forgive" then you will call me an idiot and say that I would let this person violate my family. If I said, "No" I am a hypocrite. I answered "Yes" but I qualified the answer in light of protecting my family but also showing compassion to the family. You, then, call my a hypocrite. Your response is juvenile and rooted in Phariseeism.

Would I forgive? yes! Would I feed them? Yes! Would I call the police? Yes! I need to protect my family and friends.

Read my post... it was rationale and not hypocritical. Saying such shows you were only trying to "trap" me.

 

[mandym]

Most of these people can't come the legal ways because our laws make a poor person unlikely to get into our country legally. I met a man who tried to get into our country legally three times, but denied each time because he has "nothing to offer us." He is poor. Yet, to prevent his family from starving, he came over anyway.

Or they can organize to make things better in their own country. And again you continue to ignore the very high risk of unfettered illegal immigration. It poses a very real and dangerous threat to Americans.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Ruiz, we can't have open borders. What we need to do is impose stiff penalties on employers who hire illegal aliens. If we do that, many of them will leave voluntarily. It is a failure of capitalism that greedy employers hire illegals and leave real Americans unemployed and drive down labor costs so that the Americans who have jobs have lowered wages. This country can't accommodate hoards of non-white Hispanics prancing across the border. We can have some legal immigration, but we can't have blanket amnesties and provide social services to the whole world. There isn't the money for that.

 

[Ruiz]

Matt Wade

Here is another proposition for you. In 2012, let's have you and I go on a mission trip to a Latin American country. We can live for a week with a very poor group of people. When you see the utter poverty, the joy they will have when I bring in a bag of rice for they can eat that day. You will see poverty as you have never seen in America (having ministered in Appalachia, I have seen poverty here). You will see the hardness of life, the huts that are nothing more than makeshift homes, and people who drink the water they use to wash their clothing, bathe, and where their cattle gather.

After a week, I will ask you if you would ever want to send someone back into this situation legal or illegal. Then I will let a man passionate for missions ask you to move there to help them. Truly, if you are like me, you would want to move there but hesitate because of the utter poverty and pain you would suffer by just living there.

We are rich in America. Being rich, we have no clue the poverty they are trying to escape.

I think you will change your viewpoint about them. If you have a child, you weep seeing little girls and boys live in these places... When you return home, you will hold your child closer and become thankful you are in America... and wish more people could come here.

 

[Ruiz]

Ruiz, we can't have open borders. What we need to do is impose stiff penalties on employers who hire illegal aliens. If we do that, many of them will leave voluntarily. It is a failure of capitalism that greedy employers hire illegals and leave real Americans unemployed and drive down labor costs so that the Americans who have jobs have lowered wages. This country can't accommodate hoards of non-white Hispanics prancing across the border. We can have some legal immigration, but we can't have blanket amnesties and provide social services to the whole world. There isn't the money for that.

I have addressed the political issues elsewhere. Yet, all I am asking is to have grace on these people. I think if we made it extremely easy to come to America it would be easier to protect our borders from those who actually want to harm us, not harder. Yet, that aside, why not just care for people and have grace on those who come in?

Why can't we shed grace upon these people? Why can't we love them and welcome them?

BTW, I think we can handle them. Yet, that is not the issue, the issue is whether we will have grace on them.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Yet, that aside, why not just care for people and have grace on those who come in?

Why can't we shed grace upon these people? Why can't we love them and welcome them?

BTW, I think we can handle them. Yet, that is not the issue, the issue is whether we will have grace on them.

We don't have the money. They drive wages down. We can love them; we just can't keep them here. Your radical open-borders policy would spell disaster. I'm not arguing for a massive rounding up of illegals. If we take care of the illegal employer problem, that will go a long way to solving the illegal alien problem.

 

[Ruiz]

We don't have the money. They drive wages down. We can love them; we just can't keep them here. Your radical open-borders policy would spell disaster. I'm not arguing for a massive rounding up of illegals. If we take care of the illegal employer problem, that will go a long way to solving the illegal alien problem.

Paul,

I do not have a "radical open borders policy" (You can't win a debate by calling something radical, and I am not advocating a policy, but an ethic), I am advocating Christian Grace towards fellow humans. You seem to think it is too costly, and while I dispute your economic data as being shortsighted, even if I were wrong let me state that Christian grace is often costly. It cost Jesus his life.

One of the arguments against freeing the slaves in England was that it would bankrupt England. It about did. The Christians said that economics should be studied and understood, but Christian ethics should not be based on financial feasibility. They did the right thing and the economic tumult ensued. Yet, I think they did the right thing despite the economic cost.

Grace is a wonderful thing. Should we act as Christ and forgive these people their small offenses in light of the great offenses we committed against Christ? Ours debt cost our dear Lord His life. I think showing forth this type of mercy and grace is in keeping with our name as "Christian."

Let's have the privilege to giving grace and showing the same love that Christ showed us.

 

[Arbo]

Ruiz-
I have noticed that grace and forgiveness are the themes of your posts regarding illegal immigration. As a descendent of immigrants I can sympathize with your views, however I must disagree with you based on what is the law of the land.

Would you not agree that a sovereign nation has the right to set the law within its borders, including laws dealing with immigration? If these laws governing immigration that are broken, should not the lawbreakers be dealt with?

Simply extending 'grace and forgiveness' to illegal immigrants is advocating breaking the law.

 

[carpro]

Ruiz, we can't have open borders. What we need to do is impose stiff penalties on employers who hire illegal aliens.

The penalties are in place, but the truth is that your liberals heros won't allow employers to use the tools they need to obey the law.

They will not give them access to a government database to verify social security numbers. Until the government does that, they are only paying lip service to immigration enforcement. And that's the way they want it.

 

[Ruiz]

Ruiz-
I have noticed that grace and forgiveness are the themes of your posts regarding illegal immigration. As a descendent of immigrants I can sympathize with your views, however I must disagree with you based on what is the law of the land.

Would you not agree that a sovereign nation has the right to set the law within its borders, including laws dealing with immigration? If these laws governing immigration that are broken, should not the lawbreakers be dealt with?

Simply extending 'grace and forgiveness' to illegal immigrants is advocating breaking the law.

A state has the right to have laws. However, your rational only gives me more reasons why I think we should have grace. If these people didn't do anything wrong, they would not need grace. The call for grace presupposes the right of a state to make laws and uphold their laws. The call for grace, though, says that we forgive and love them.

My viewpoint is not advocating a breakdown in the law. I am advocating a change in the law.

God did the exact same thing to us. We violated God's law. However, He forgave us. This does not mean God was advocating breaking the law (Romans 6 is an excellent chapter combating the idea of libertine theology) but it shows us the wonderful nature of grace.

Because I forgive does not mean I advocate more sin no more than God did when He forgave us. Rather, I believe such a grace is similar to the grace God gave to us.

Does grace encourage a libertine philosophy? I believe it does not.

 

[matt wade]

Matt Wade

Here is another proposition for you. In 2012, let's have you and I go on a mission trip to a Latin American country. We can live for a week with a very poor group of people. When you see the utter poverty, the joy they will have when I bring in a bag of rice for they can eat that day. You will see poverty as you have never seen in America (having ministered in Appalachia, I have seen poverty here). You will see the hardness of life, the huts that are nothing more than makeshift homes, and people who drink the water they use to wash their clothing, bathe, and where their cattle gather.

After a week, I will ask you if you would ever want to send someone back into this situation legal or illegal. Then I will let a man passionate for missions ask you to move there to help them. Truly, if you are like me, you would want to move there but hesitate because of the utter poverty and pain you would suffer by just living there.

We are rich in America. Being rich, we have no clue the poverty they are trying to escape.

I think you will change your viewpoint about them. If you have a child, you weep seeing little girls and boys live in these places... When you return home, you will hold your child closer and become thankful you are in America... and wish more people could come here.

Oh you paint such a picture Ruiz. What do you know of what I have or have not done? Or what I have seen or have not seen? You continue to make assumptions about me, my background, and my viewpoint yet you know nothing about any of them.

Tell us, Ruiz, what exactly are you doing to help these people that you are so passionate about? Have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to them? Where's your compassion?

 

[Ruiz]

Oh you paint such a picture Ruiz. What do you know of what I have or have not done? Or what I have seen or have not seen? You continue to make assumptions about me, my background, and my viewpoint yet you know nothing about any of them.

Tell us, Ruiz, what exactly are you doing to help these people that you are so passionate about? Have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to them? Where's your compassion?

Matt,

Am I wrong in my assessment, Matt? I assumed you have not personally seen this dramatic poverty, because I could not imagine after seeing dire poverty forcing anyone to return to that situation.

Both my wife and I have worked with tribal people. Both our situations were limited and situations have prevented us from going full time. We have prayed many times about going over as full time missionaries. I, oftentimes, regret not going overseas. Yet, God has closed many of those doors at this time.

God has shown me that grace can be given to people who suffer. Grace is glorious and I think this is at the heart of Christianity.

 

[Arbo]

A state has the right to have laws. However, your rational only gives me more reasons why I think we should have grace. If these people didn't do anything wrong, they would not need grace. The call for grace presupposes the right of a state to make laws and uphold their laws. The call for grace, though, says that we forgive and love them.

The call for grace 'presupposes' the right of a state to make laws? Are you kidding me? You are flat out wrong. By that rationale I can rob a bank and get away with it simply because there is a law against robbing a bank. According to you, the state has NO right to make laws. Essentially, you are advocating anarchy.

 

[Ruiz]

The call for grace 'presupposes' the right of a state to make laws? Are you kidding me? You are flat out wrong. By that rationale I can rob a bank and get away with it simply because there is a law against robbing a bank. According to you, the state has NO right to make laws. Essentially, you are advocating anarchy.

Arbo,

You misunderstood my statement. If there were no law there could be no grace. Grace, as well, is never deserved.

Thus, if you robbed a bank the law says you should be punished. This, we all agree. In this case on immigration, I am asking for us to have grace instead of law.

I never said the state has no right to make laws. In fact, I stand strong that the state has the right to make laws. If they didn't have the right to make laws, grace would not be an issue. Grace is only an issue if the state has the right to make law and enforce the law.

Take this from Christianity. God made a law. He was just in making this law. We broke this law and thus deserved punishment. However, God had grace on us (not all of us, but those who believed).

God has all the right to make a law

We broke it

God had grace.

I am saying the same with the state.

The State had a right to make a law.

Illegals broke it.

I am asking us to have grace upon them.

 

[Arbo]

Arbo,

You misunderstood my statement. If there were no law there could be no grace. Grace, as well, is never deserved.

Thus, if you robbed a bank the law says you should be punished. This, we all agree. In this case on immigration, I am asking for us to have grace instead of law.

So tell me what is the difference between robbing a bank and infiltrating this country illegally? In both cases the law has been broken.

What you are 'asking' is to ignore the law.

 

[Arbo]

Arbo,

Take this from Christianity. God made a law. He was just in making this law. We broke this law and thus deserved punishment. However, God had grace on us (not all of us, but those who believed).

Don't forget that grace was PAID for by His Son. It did NOT cost nothing.

 

[mandym]

Arbo,

You misunderstood my statement. If there were no law there could be no grace. Grace, as well, is never deserved.

Thus, if you robbed a bank the law says you should be punished. This, we all agree. In this case on immigration, I am asking for us to have grace instead of law.

I never said the state has no right to make laws. In fact, I stand strong that the state has the right to make laws. If they didn't have the right to make laws, grace would not be an issue. Grace is only an issue if the state has the right to make law and enforce the law.

Take this from Christianity. God made a law. He was just in making this law. We broke this law and thus deserved punishment. However, God had grace on us (not all of us, but those who believed).

God has all the right to make a law

We broke it

God had grace.

I am saying the same with the state.

The State had a right to make a law.

Illegals broke it.

I am asking us to have grace upon them.

I will make one more attempt to invite you to address the very real danger in letting illegal aliens in of whom we know nothing about. This will be my last attempt. If you still refuse to address it I will then extend you the grace on this subject. God Bless

 

[Crabtownboy]

I will make one more attempt to invite you to address the very real danger in letting illegal aliens in of whom we know nothing about. This will be my last attempt. If you still refuse to address it I will then extend you the grace on this subject. God Bless

Our local newspaper did an indepth investigation on illegal aliens. They conclusion was the the economy of our region, three states, would be devastated if all the illegal aliens were sent home. Most restaurants, bars, fast food restaurants, cleaning services and lawn services would close as would a majority of the construction projects. I was surprised at their conclusion.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Our local newspaper did an indepth investigation on illegal aliens. They conclusion was the the economy of our region, three states, would be devastated if all the illegal aliens were sent home. Most restaurants, bars, fast food restaurants, cleaning services and lawn services would close as would a majority of the construction projects. I was surprised at their conclusion.

We have an unemployment rate pushing 10%. There's no reason why the businesses can't hire persons authorized to work in the U.S. It's the illegals that are causing economic issues.

 

[mandym]

Our local newspaper did an indepth investigation on illegal aliens. They conclusion was the the economy of our region, three states, would be devastated if all the illegal aliens were sent home. Most restaurants, bars, fast food restaurants, cleaning services and lawn services would close as would a majority of the construction projects. I was surprised at their conclusion.

OK you just ignored all my words and tried to redirect to absolutely nothing. Do you want to try to address what you quoted?