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Armenian Baptists?

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Thousand Hills

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This is what we call a false dichotomy. Salvation can certainly be a work of God without being "irresistibly" applied to a select few.

Select few? :BangHead: I believe there will be multitudes in heaven by God's grace, not their own works.

Revelations 7:9-10 "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Matthew Henry Commentary:

The first fruits of Christ having led the way, the Gentiles converted later follow, and ascribe their salvation to God and the Redeemer, with triumph. In acts of religious worship we come nigh to God, and must come by Christ; the throne of God could not be approached by sinners, were it not for a Mediator. They were clothed with the robes of justification, holiness, and victory; and they had palms in their hands, as conquerors used to appear in their triumphs. Such a glorious appearance will the faithful servants of God make at last, when they have fought the good fight of faith, and finished their course. With a loud voice they gave to God and the Lamb the praise of the great salvation. Those who enjoy eternal happiness must and will bless both the Father and the Son; they will do it publicly, and with fervour. We see what is the work of heaven, and we ought to begin it now, to have our hearts much in it, and to long for that world where our praises, as well as our happiness, will be made perfect.
 
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webdog

Active Member
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How many make it through the narrow gate?

Of course viewed through the scope of every human who ever existed it will be a large multitude, but compared to those that perish it will be a few.
 

Jeremiah2911

Member
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This is what we call a false dichotomy. Salvation can certainly be a work of God without being "irresistibly" applied to a select few.

Hello,well maybe I'm not understanding something....I said Salvation is a work of God not man--I thought that was all I said--and I would think that Scriptural [Eph 2.8-10], not a false dichotomy[I'm going to have to get a dictionary! :)] .....if you are ascribing your comment to the fact I think myself Calvanistic, I rather should say I'm a Bible believer, and the Calvinistic theology seems to fit Scripture best in my [and many others] opinion....God bless and sorry if I'm misunderstanding you....
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
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Before You Can Get Through the Narrow Gate....

How many make it through the narrow gate?

Of course viewed through the scope of every human who ever existed it will be a large multitude, but compared to those that perish it will be a few.

....You must spiritually navigate the narrow path.
 

12strings

Active Member
Having said that, the SBC doesn't have factions that question eternal security do they?

The Baptist Faith and Message (SBC statement of faith) affirms Eternal security.

However, there are many who (based on years of observing people fall away) would say that although Jesus will never cast someone out, and "no one ELSE may pluck them" out of his hand...that a person can willingly remove themselves from salvation (which they would consider to have been true for some time) and then be lost once again. Again, in our church those who hold this view are generally those in their 50's & 60's who have seen numerous people who seemed to follow god for many years, and then turn away.

My personal view on this is that they (1) may not have been saved at all, or (2) may still be saved but in a time of disobedience...God knows.

When I taught a Sunday School class on this, we had a great discussion (It was even civil, believe it or not!)...and we emphasized that regardless of whether we believe someone was formerly a Christian or not...if they seem to not be a Christian NOW, they need to keep hearing the gospel and have Christians reach out to them.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Hello,well maybe I'm not understanding something....I said Salvation is a work of God not man--I thought that was all I said--and I would think that Scriptural [Eph 2.8-10], not a false dichotomy[I'm going to have to get a dictionary! :)] .....if you are ascribing your comment to the fact I think myself Calvanistic, I rather should say I'm a Bible believer, and the Calvinistic theology seems to fit Scripture best in my [and many others] opinion....God bless and sorry if I'm misunderstanding you....

The comment made in this context seemed to suggest that those who believe as you do (Calvinistically) credit Salvation as a work of God while those who are not Calvinists must believe it is a work of man. That is a debate fallacy called "false dichotomy." (Google has some good dictionaries. :) )

I'm wondering how "Calvinistic" you have become. Do you believe that all who hear the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God are able to willingly repent and believe unto salvation? If not, why not?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The comment made in this context seemed to suggest that those who believe as you do (Calvinistically) credit Salvation as a work of God while those who are not Calvinists must believe it is a work of man. That is a debate fallacy called "false dichotomy." (Google has some good dictionaries. :) )

Not accurate fully...

cals believe that due to sin natures, in Adam, and spiritually dead to God...

cannot come to know God in a saving fashion apart from Him directly electing to save us, by provding Grace to believe unto Jesus and be saved.


Arms believe man marred by fall, still possess inherit within himself to respond to Gospel by inherit faith, and that God enables ALL people to be in a position to respond of their own ' free will'

So cals see man as dead in sin, God MUST send grace to enable them to respond by faith in Christ, and JUST the elect shall do such, and all whom are chosen BY God shall be saved...

Arms see God applying grace to ALL peoples, and as such, ALl have the means to respond by faith, as all men have same means to do such, as God has enabled their 'free will" to respond

All those who choose to accept and receive Jesus will be saved, God grants all chance to be saved, up to us to accept and get saved!




I'm wondering how "Calvinistic" you have become. Do you believe that all who hear the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God are able to willingly repent and believe unto salvation? If not, why not?


Why does God "owe" salvation to All though?

ALL of us are dead in our sins and natures towards God, willfully chose to sin against him...

So the cals make sure to have salvation as the means by which God gets the glory, as it is HIM deciding to save us, while Arms tend to see it as them deciding for God...
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
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Another group fitting the OP description would be Russian Baptists:thumbs:
 

Iconoclast

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Thank you and God bless you, and I'll study that link!

http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/all.html

This site has many great SBC resources.... the Founders movement is trying to get many to look at the historic confessions that southern baptisits used to use...some still do!

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

here is the complete 1689 confession of faith....used by all ARBCA churches

http://reformedbaptistfellowship.wordpress.com/

Good articles here;

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/home.php

look up the archived articles...good resource! click on articles

These will keep you going.....

if i could recommend one book by a Baptist...it would be this one....
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589

You can download it to your desktop for only 5$ [look in the upper right hand corner for direct download]...the book goes for 15 plus tax/shipping.......if you do not like the book...I will buy it off of you no questions asked....it is Christ centered, contemporary, loaded with scripture and helpful teaching from the Greek and Hebrew. Good for families and churches.....everyone who has picked it up loves it...any page is a bible study all by itself!
 

Jeremiah2911

Member
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I'm wondering how "Calvinistic" you have become. Do you believe that all who hear the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God are able to willingly repent and believe unto salvation? If not, why not?

Hello again Brother [I think your a Bro and not a Sis :)]I'm heading to my daughters vball game in a moment so I can't write a volume, but I'll just say this: If I believed word for word what you just said [IF I'm understanding correctly :)], my preaching would be entirely based on emotional evangelistic appeal [ex Charles Finney] because I would think something I could do would be able to save someone [my job is to preach the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit do His Work]--also, if I believe I have ultimate control over my decision, wouldn't I also have to believe I could lose my salvation? I've written in other posts that I believe the Bible--I trust that whosoever will may come, I just believe whosoever will WILL come--I'm not a Bible Scholar and I would never get in a heated debate about something I don't consider that important--the important thing is for a soul to accept Christ and know for sure they have eternal life, regardless of what we "theologians" believe..... btw, yes, Paul said Godly sorrow worketh repentence

God bless and peace
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hello again Brother [I think your a Bro and not a Sis :)]I'm heading to my daughters vball game in a moment so I can't write a volume, but I'll just say this: If I believed word for word what you just said [IF I'm understanding correctly :)], my preaching would be entirely based on emotional evangelistic appeal [ex Charles Finney] because I would think something I could do would be able to save someone [my job is to preach the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit do His Work]--also, if I believe I have ultimate control over my decision, wouldn't I also have to believe I could lose my salvation? I've written in other posts that I believe the Bible--I trust that whosoever will may come, I just believe whosoever will WILL come--I'm not a Bible Scholar and I would never get in a heated debate about something I don't consider that important--the important thing is for a soul to accept Christ and know for sure they have eternal life, regardless of what we "theologians" believe..... btw, yes, Paul said Godly sorrow worketh repentence

God bless and peace
:thumbsup:::thumbsup::
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
If I believed word for word what you just said
I just asked a question...one you failed to answer by the way. :)

my preaching would be entirely based on emotional evangelistic appeal [ex Charles Finney] because I would think something I could do would be able to save someone [my job is to preach the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit do His Work]--also, if I believe I have ultimate control over my decision, wouldn't I also have to believe I could lose my salvation?
If you are insinuating that all non-Calvinists rely completely upon emotional manipulations tactics, then you could not be more mistaken. Non-Calvinists, like myself, believe salvation is a work of God, we would just take issue with the concept that such work is irresistibly applied to a select few to the neglect of all others.

Secondly, why do you call it "my decision" if you don't have control over it? Isn't it God's decision?

Third, some affirm that one can freely believe and repent thus receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit thus guaranteeing their inheritance. Once the HS seals the deal he is faithful to complete the work that was begun by Him. After all, all believers, have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and ultimately adopted as sons/daughters upon the redemption of our bodies...something the church eagerly awaits.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
I just asked a question...one you failed to answer by the way. :)


If you are insinuating that all non-Calvinists rely completely upon emotional manipulations tactics, then you could not be more mistaken. Non-Calvinists, like myself, believe salvation is a work of God, we would just take issue with the concept that such work is irresistibly applied to a select few to the neglect of all others.

Secondly, why do you call it "my decision" if you don't have control over it? Isn't it God's decision?

Third, some affirm that one can freely believe and repent thus receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit thus guaranteeing their inheritance. Once the HS seals the deal he is faithful to complete the work that was begun by Him. After all, all believers, have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and ultimately adopted as sons/daughters upon the redemption of our bodies...something the church eagerly awaits.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Iconoclast

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we would just take issue with the concept that such work is irresistibly applied to a select few to the neglect of all others.


1] a select few , is a complete mis-representation of the biblical gospel

2] to the neglect of all others ...is biblically incoherent....How can salvation be a "work of God" and not save?
In your view God does part of it ,then man does the rest. In your view salvation is a work of man and God together....that is not the biblical view.
 

Benjamin

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1] a select few , is a complete mis-representation of the biblical gospel


True, yet that is exactly what you (a Calvinist) will and do preach. (Especially if they mock you:rolleyes: )

2] to the neglect of all others ...is biblically incoherent....How can salvation be a "work of God" and not save?


Salvation is a gift, one that may or may not be accepted. Defining it as irresistible is not the biblical view. How many times are you going to ask the same question that has been answered here thousands of times?!



In your view God does part of it ,then man does the rest. In your view salvation is a work of man and God together....that is not the biblical view.


In your view for God to be sovereign He has to have determined all things. Therefore one can only conclude that His offer of salvation to all men is not genuine. God not being “Truth” is Biblically incoherent.


Just trying to help you Icon.
 

webdog

Active Member
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1] a select few , is a complete mis-representation of the biblical gospel
...yet the Bible states many are called, few are chosen, few will enter through the narrow gate, etc.

2] to the neglect of all others ...is biblically incoherent....How can salvation be a "work of God" and not save?
In your view God does part of it ,then man does the rest. In your view salvation is a work of man and God together....that is not the biblical view.

Acts 17:26-27 show God placing man in the ideal location on this planet and time to seek Him and "perhaps find Him, although He is not far from each of us." Clearly this is a work of God not resulting in salvation else "perhaps" would not be in the equation.
 

Iconoclast

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True, yet that is exactly what you (a Calvinist) will and do preach. (Especially if they mock you:: )

Benjamin...I know you know that is not quite it......While it is true that not everyone is elect,and those who mock the gospel oppose themselves....a multitude are going to be saved.


Salvation is a gift, one that may or may not be accepted.

No Benjamin....the gift is always accepted ,because God makes all[allhe intends to save] willing in the day of His power. If he left it up to us ...no one would be saved.


Defining it as irresistible is not the biblical view.

Well this must have been a typo on your part...of course it is the biblical view.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

Lets work through this together Benjamin....
1].who comes to Jesus?
ans. - All the Father Gives to Jesus

2]Is that all men who ever lived?
ans .-no it is not...the text says All The Father Gives to Jesus

3]what if they do not want salvation?

ans.- the text says they SHALL come
4] I thought you calvinists say men will not come?
ans.- that is true men are unwilling to come....however this text says that ALL THE FATHER GIVES SHALL COME
5] well how do you explain it?
ans.- we look and see if scripture indicates why some sinners do come,and we see that God uses means, The Spirit giving a new heart, The Spirit allowing them to welcome the word that they used to reject...now they welcome it...it effectually works in them;

13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Benjamin....all the verses you have listed in other posts about seeking, or believing are all good verses. Somehow you persist with an idea that calvinists do not teach or urge persons to believe the gospel. We do ....




How many times are you going to ask the same question that has been answered here thousands of times?!

Benjamin.....if the wrong "answers" are given...we will continue!

In your view for God to be sovereign He has to have determined all things. Therefore one can only conclude that His offer of salvation to all men is not genuine. God not being “Truth” is Biblically incoherent. [/FONT][/SIZE]

Yes....There cannot be anything, not one particle,atom, neutron, quark,...nothing exists outside of God's absolute control...or He is not the God who has revealed Himself in scripture:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Just trying to help you Icon.

Yes.....that is a good thing Benjamin...although Winman considers trying to help to be arrogant ,and condescending....I do not. You can offer biblical correction at anytime Benjamin...perhaps one day we might be in biblical agreement...[or...maybe we will have to wait until the last day:laugh:]

it might seem odd but I do not think that you are as far apart from what biblical calvinists see as truth as you think.....when we are not contending with each other...I see when you answer others who do not "push your buttons "...that your responses many times interweave with exactly how a calvinist would answer ....be careful Benjamin....you might slip and start reading some of the puritans and see verses you do not hear opened up in your church:thumbsup:
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
1] a select few , is a complete mis-representation of the biblical gospel
In addition to what Webdog and Ben already pointed out, allow me to ask why this offends? Isn't it a relative few who are selected by God for salvation in the Calvinistic system? When you compare those who are elect with those who are not wouldn't you say the elect are "few" in comparison? I'm not sure why this offends???

2] to the neglect of all others ...is biblically incoherent....How can salvation be a "work of God" and not save?
Because it's not meant to be irresistible as you presume.

In your view God does part of it ,then man does the rest.
Which is much more biblical than the view where condemned men have the perfect excuse because God didn't provide sufficient means by which they could be reconciled. Your view exalts the view of man by giving him a good excuse for his unbelief.
 
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Jeremiah2911

Member
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I just asked a question...one you failed to answer by the way.
Hello again! Eventually I'm going to have to show my ignorance and it might as well be now..... I can certainly see that, long before I joined this board, there has been much discussion and "debate" [for lack of a better term] between "cals and non cals", [I never claimed to be a 5pt Calvinist, only that I am Calvinistic btw] and there seems to be lines drawn and etc etc. I joined this forum just to enjoy fellowship with other believers, pastors, etc and I admit I've already been drawn into some debates on other issues which probably aren't going to edify anyone, and I don't feel like this debate is going to edify anyone either--I thought I answered your question, but its quite possible I didn't understand it :) I believe those who hear the Gospel, the Spirit draws them, they repent, accept Christ, they are regenerated, born again, they are saved AMEN! Besides that point, does anything else really matter? Does everyone have a "chance" to be saved? The Scripture surely seems to say everyone [with an accountable mind] sure does. Will everyone be saved? No......now, how we get from point A [sinners hearing the Gospel] to point B [sinners being born again, or lost eternally], KNOWING our Lord has foreknowledge, is where it gets fuzzy....Does it really matter how we get from pt A to pt B? Brother, if it was God's design to save all, all would be saved....Scripture says clearly [again] whosoever ......but I'm torn because why don't they??
Your question was:
Do you believe that all who hear the Gospel appeal to be reconciled to God are able to willingly repent and believe unto salvation?
Now, after having written that mini novel above, I can honestly say I don't understand your question, because I don't believe all who hear the Gospel will appeal to be reconciled....no one will willingly repent and believe unless the Spirit draws him

If you are insinuating that all non-Calvinists rely completely upon emotional manipulations tactics, then you could not be more mistaken. Non-Calvinists, like myself, believe salvation is a work of God, we would just take issue with the concept that such work is irresistibly applied to a select few to the neglect of all others.
:) I'm too dumb to be insinuating anything! I never said such a thing! I was raised in an Arminian Church [lose your salvation] and, lets face it, if you can lose your salvation, you will....How can we keep it being human? So every Sunday morning the Preacher would preach a fire and brimstone salvation message [every Sunday] to the same congregation.....then people would walk the aisles and try to get people to repent.....this is what I grew up with and I was never comfortable for visitors when we were fortunate enough to have them! But if I believed I [man] had anything to do with the salvation process, it would certainly change my entire approach to preaching!

As far as the "select few" issue, again, God has foreknowledge, how you get from pt A to pt B is the issue. I know my God is a loving God, but if I [and my peabrain] could understand His Mind, He wouldn't be much of a God. I have gotten into some "discussions" in my Church in years past with people who would be open deists [even though they don't know what that means]:)....I could never accept open deism.

Secondly, why do you call it "my decision" if you don't have control over it? Isn't it God's decision?
The problem here is semantics, I was just trying to answer your question

Third, some affirm that one can freely believe and repent thus receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit thus guaranteeing their inheritance. Once the HS seals the deal he is faithful to complete the work that was begun by Him. After all, all believers, have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and ultimately adopted as sons/daughters upon the redemption of our bodies...something the church eagerly awaits.

Well, whatever you mean by freely I may not understand, but if the Holy Spirit isn't in the process, I don't know how you'd ever see a man/woman repent or be regenerated......
Peace man Peace:jesus:
 
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