Armenian Baptists?

[Skandelon]

I never claimed to be a 5pt Calvinist, only that I am Calvinistic btw

I understand, that is why I asked the question. I wanted to see HOW calvinistic you had become...

I joined this forum just to enjoy fellowship with other believers, pastors, etc and I admit I've already been drawn into some debates on other issues which probably aren't going to edify anyone, and I don't feel like this debate is going to edify anyone either

Welcome. There are fellowship forums here too. This particular forum is a Theology debate forum, so don't be surprised if that theme continues....but some of us are nice too.

I believe those who hear the Gospel, the Spirit draws them

So do non-Calvinists, we just don't believe its "irresistible."

they repent, accept Christ, they are regenerated, born again, they are saved AMEN!

Calvinists would disagree with you here because most would teach that regeneration (the irresistible calling) comes prior to faith and repentance.

Besides that point, does anything else really matter?

If you think biblical theology matters, yes.

Now, after having written that mini novel above, I can honestly say I don't understand your question, because I don't believe all who hear the Gospel will appeal to be reconciled....no one will willingly repent and believe unless the Spirit draws him

The gospel IS God's appeal to men calling them to reconciliation. We both agree that no one will willingly repent unless called to do so by the Spirit, I just happen to believe the gospel, which is inspired, preserved and carried by the Spirit, is sufficient to call all mankind to reconciliation with God.

But if I believed I [man] had anything to do with the salvation process, it would certainly change my entire approach to preaching!

You need to understand that even Calvinists believe a response of faith from man is necessary in the salvation process. Like it or not that is man having something to do with it, whether irresistibly drawn or not is another matter. Either way, it is my contention God gets all the glory.

Well, whatever you mean by freely I may not understand, but if the Holy Spirit isn't in the process, I don't know how you'd ever see a man/woman repent or be regenerated......
Peace man Peace:jesus:

The Holy Spirit is certainly in the process. I hope you don't think non-Calvinists would deny that.

 

[mandym]

Because it's not meant to be irresistible as you presume.

Precisely! :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

In addition to what Webdog and Ben already pointed out, allow me to ask why this offends? Isn't it a relative few who are selected by God for salvation in the Calvinistic system? When you compare those who are elect with those who are not wouldn't you say the elect are "few" in comparison? I'm not sure why this offends???

Because it's not meant to be irresistible as you presume.

Which is much more biblical than the view where condemned men have the perfect excuse because God didn't provide sufficient means by which they could be reconciled. Your view exalts the view of man by giving him a good excuse for his unbelief.

Skan,
Good questions here;
In addition to what Webdog and Ben already pointed out, allow me to ask why this offends? Isn't it a relative few who are selected by God for salvation in the Calvinistic system? When you compare those who are elect with those who are not wouldn't you say the elect are "few" in comparison? I'm not sure why this offends???

Many have this idea that gets made into a caricature that the teaching is of an elite group ,or little club [a spiritual country club full of self righteous persons who delight in sinners going to hell].
Yet Thousand Hills had offered some fine verses indicating an innumerable multitude will be saved by God's mercy.
Many go to the verse in Luke...are there few that be saved?

The numbers are really not the issue however. What if we are still the early church? What if the gospel is preached for thousands of years still?

In the OT the concept of an elect remnant makes it seem this way...as sadly Israel was drifting big time into Apostasy;

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Now the gospel is no longer confined to one nation but has gone worldwide there is no reason to have a dark and gloomy outlook on the spread of the gospel. psalm72 psalm 22

8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth

17His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

I'm not sure why this offends???

Look at it this way......when someone studies themself into the doctrines of grace,many times it begins with a study of God Himself and of Jesus person and work. This study shows all of the Holy attributes of God...Love mercy , righteousness, etc We serve a God who will save all He can wisely save He makes no mistakes, He knows the end from the beginning, There is no other way that that which he has revealed.

So with that as a starting point to see those who do not share the 5pts, constantly put forth a distorted view of what we see in scripture.....It is offensive to read what we perceive is an attack upon the God we worship and serve.
He alone holds all salvation in His hands, so when someone attacks it is an attack upon one or more of His Holy attributes.

Most of these statements....
what if, why did God , what if God, God is a monster, I could not worship that God, My God is not going to do what you say, usually are not statements made by someone who is looking for truth...but rather looking to bring down calvinist thought.

Because it's not meant to be irresistible as you presume.

Skan....you say this but why is it hard to grasp the idea that God has exactly designed a salvation that does work effectually...and ultimately in a way that is not ultimately resisted by the sinner drawn by the Spirit.

Which is much more biblical than the view where condemned men have the perfect excuse because God didn't provide sufficient means by which they could be reconciled

No men have any excuse;

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Unsaved men have the gospel command addressed to them...repent and believe the gospel.......that is what they are concerned about..
It is very rare that they even know or discuss theological issues in much detail as is discussed in a discussion forum....so this idea does not hold water.

Benjamin gets disturbed that I told him their are times I mention God's eternal decree in evangelism...especially with those who are proud and mock at the gospel.... I let them know {after plainly laying out sin and the fall, the cross and the blood} I let them know God has a multitude of people he has elected to be saved...who at a point in time will by the grace of God, repent and believe the gospel. They will saving come to Jesus as the bible describes.
I challenge them that they are not guarenteed tommorow...and if they have not dealt with God yet about their soul and complied with its terms I would be in fear if I were them. I let them know in no uncertain terms that not everyone is going to believe the gospel and worse than that...not everyone can believe!
I leave them with no hope ,except they believe in Jesus....no hope in any religious ritual, no hope in their own abilities, or anything they can do.

So no.....my view does not exalt man at all...and I believe the scripture leaves no hope for fallem man ..except the blood of Jesus.:thumbs:

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Welcome. There are fellowship forums here too. This particular forum is a Theology debate forum, so don't be surprised if that theme continues....but some of us are nice too.

Lol! I think you are all nice btw....I guess I knew this was a debate forum, but I didn't realize what I was getting into.....obviously you [and many others] have debated these issues much longer than I have, and I should probably do a lot more studying before I dive in head first, because I'm sure that everything I may say [or think] would have already been discussed....I was wondering about Arminian Baptists when I began this thread....everything else has just been a byproduct ....I can't argue Irresistible grace one way or the other [I don't believe anyone can prove or disprove the legitimacy of it].....I cringe when I listen to the doctrine of election taught, but when I combine the Bible, faith, and common sense, I can't argue with it [whether I like it our not]....I have read the rest of your answers and I really can't disagree with any of your points.... But I will stand by what I've said in the last post [God's foreknowledge], and I'm sure we'll debate some more in other threads .....God bless

 

[Skandelon]

I should probably do a lot more studying before I dive in head first

:thumbsup: We've all been there.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Look at it this way......when someone studies themself into the doctrines of grace,many times it begins with a study of God Himself and of Jesus person and work. This study shows all of the Holy attributes of God...Love mercy , righteousness, etc We serve a God who will save all He can wisely save He makes no mistakes, He knows the end from the beginning, There is no other way that that which he has revealed.

So with that as a starting point to see those who do not share the 5pts, constantly put forth a distorted view of what we see in scripture.....It is offensive to read what we perceive is an attack upon the God we worship and serve.
He alone holds all salvation in His hands, so when someone attacks it is an attack upon one or more of His Holy attributes.

Most of these statements....
what if, why did God , what if God, God is a monster, I could not worship that God, My God is not going to do what you say, usually are not statements made by someone who is looking for truth...but rather looking to bring down calvinist thought.

Hello Icon, I don't know that I consider myself a 5pt, but I agree with what you said here wholeheartedly, other than I don't find it offensive for others to disagree......It took me a lot of study to get where I am now and it was kinda hard to reprogram [renew] my mind....I don't preach the 5pt.....I preach the Bible, and as I've said, the more I study the Bible, the more Calvinistic I become....

No men have any excuse;

Unsaved men have the gospel command addressed to them...repent and believe the gospel.......that is what they are concerned about..
It is very rare that they even know or discuss theological issues in much detail as is discussed in a discussion forum....so this idea does not hold water.

Benjamin gets disturbed that I told him their are times I mention God's eternal decree in evangelism...especially with those who are proud and mock at the gospel.... I let them know {after plainly laying out sin and the fall, the cross and the blood} I let them know God has a multitude of people he has elected to be saved...who at a point in time will by the grace of God, repent and believe the gospel. They will saving come to Jesus as the bible describes.
I challenge them that they are not guarenteed tommorow...and if they have not dealt with God yet about their soul and complied with its terms I would be in fear if I were them. I let them know in no uncertain terms that not everyone is going to believe the gospel and worse than that...not everyone can believe!
I leave them with no hope ,except they believe in Jesus....no hope in any religious ritual, no hope in their own abilities, or anything they can do.

So no.....my view does not exalt man at all...and I believe the scripture leaves no hope for fallem man ..except the blood of Jesus.:thumbs:

Amen! God bless

 

[Skandelon]

So no.....my view does not exalt man at all...and I believe the scripture leaves no hope for fallem man ..except the blood of Jesus.:thumbs:

See, there is the problem. The good news of this blood is sent to all mankind to make the appeal for them to be reconciled. Your view exalts those who reject it by giving them an excuse for their unbelief and rejection of the blood. In your view, they reject because they were born that way and couldn't do otherwise. That is just like the insanity defense by which our judicial system declares man "not-guilty."

However, in our system, God makes a genuine appeal thus providing a means of reconciliation for His enemies. There is no excuse for his rejection. Especially not the PERFECT excuse like, "God is against me."

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Skandelon;1732684]See, there is the problem. The good news of this blood is sent to all mankind to make the appeal for them to be reconciled. Your view exalts those who reject it by giving them an excuse for their unbelief and rejection of the blood. In your view, they reject because they were born that way and couldn't do otherwise. That is just like the insanity defense by which our judicial system declares man "

not-guilty."


The message of the Cross is meant to be the "message of the Gospel of reconcilation" towards those whon God has elected unto eternal life in jesus Christ

To those whom are the elect of God, Gospel indeed IS the power of God unto
salvation, but to those who are in their 'natural" states, It is the "bad news" in that the messiah has come, and they still "freely" choose to stay in the dark!

However, in our system, God makes a genuine appeal thus providing a means of reconciliation for His enemies. There is no excuse for his rejection. Especially not the PERFECT excuse like, "God is against me."

[/QUOTE]


except that 'your system" has jesus atoning for ALL mens sins, and yet many will be rejecting Him and dieing in their sins that jesus had paid the penalty for!

Also, you seem to indicate that God HAS TO judge all people as being same, 'equal fairness" in that ALL have the Grace from God to equally have chance to get saved, as we decide IF we want God to save usor not...

Do God cannot judge people differently, HAS to grant ALL same 'chance" dependent upon their responses...

finally, seems to NOmakes the Cross truely effectual to save ALl that Gos will save!T account for just HOW severe fall of man was...

In the state we ALL were born into, ONLY DoG would make biblical 'sense", that God would be ultimate judge of all, be the saviour to those whom He wills to show mercy towards, and the Cross would indeed have 'real" pwoer to save, as its not "all might be saved" but that some "will" get saved!

 

[Iconoclast]

See, there is the problem. The good news of this blood is sent to all mankind to make the appeal for them to be reconciled.
:thumbs::applause:

Your view exalts those who reject it


No.....My view exalts God...who is obligated to save all He has wisely purposed to save...when He did not have to save any....b ut in Love and mercy he saves a multitude.

by giving them an excuse for their unbelief and rejection of the blood.

It seems that way to you....but they have no excuse.I go all over the country and talk with all kind of people....and i can only remember a few religious apostates who knew anything about election at all.
most I talk to are just regular profane sinners.

In your view, they reject because they were born that way and couldn't do otherwise.

They are born dead in sin..and accustomed to doing evil....only evil continually..Gen6:5 my view is Moses view

That is just like the insanity defense by which our judicial system declares man "not-guilty."

However, in our system, God makes a genuine appeal thus providing a means of reconciliation for His enemies.

Yes....he makes a way possible,,,but does not actually change the sinner...your way has the sinner overcoming spiritual death, sin and satanic blindness...to get himself saved...all by himself...Jesus made a way possible..but does not actually grab hold of the sinner.....he just gives him a tract showing him the way....begs and pleads...but cannot do anything else..
it is all up to the sinner to do for himself.

There is no excuse for his rejection. Especially not the PERFECT excuse like, "God is against me."

The door on the ark was open...the gospel says come.....

 

[Skandelon]

The door on the ark was open...the gospel says come.....

Yet men are born unable to hear that appeal unless first made able by God, according to your view, thus making such an appeal appear disingenuous at best.

It would be like Noah being angry at the sin of his generation and putting a drug in their drinking water making deaf to his words and thus unable to reply to his appeal and then walking out among the people begging them to get on the boat. It is utterly ridiculously and disingenuous.

Now, you may disagree with that analogy, but tell me how it doesn't accurately represent what God does for all practical purposes? Because of the Fall, he decided to make all people born deaf to his appeal and then he goes around making an appeal to be reconciled as if its meant for everyone to hear. How is that not accurate?

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Curious, before you went about being swayed over, especially on that premise of eternal security, to being all “Hard Determinist” …err I mean Calvinist, I mean listenin to and studyin them ther Calvie’s claims about those “Armenians” had you ever read what the Remonstrates actually say about this?:

Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

I guess I hadn't read through all the replies in the thread as I thought I had; I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here [maybe poking fun at me, that's ok, I'm easy!], but if I'm reading the statement correctly, it just says WE cannot judge anothers salvation, and that, as another poster said, perserverance proves salvation, not provides it.....

 

[Jeremiah2911]

One of the distinctives of Baptists is once saved, always saved. Those actually saved will endure, so perseverance proves salvation rather than provides salvation.

I obviously hadn't read this post either, sorry ; Amen to this statement!

Another distinctive of Baptists is General Reconciliation, where Christ died for all mankind, rather than just for the preselected elect, as Calvinism claims. But only those who "receive reconciliation" through God's acceptance of their faith in Christ, obtain the benefit of Christ's propitiatory death for all mankind.

What is the view on these two topics, that you want to walk away from.

As far as your question, let me start with a statement: I was under the delusion that Arminanism was based loosely on the denial of eternal security. [That being the main point I cannot accept in my Baptist denomination] My Calvinistic views stem from my Scriptural studies of God's predestination, foreknowledge, Sovereignty and election. I still preach in the here and now....I believe whosover will may come, I just trust whosoever will WILL come.....finally, I know Scripture says John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Now we know not all WILL be saved, so to say I believe in a General atonement [as I understand it] would also be saying [at least in my thinking] that Christs purpose was frustrated at Calvary.

I certainly agree with you that getting a person to say a prayer (just to get you to go away) inhibits salvation. That kind of behavior hurts the ministry of Christ, and presents a false gospel that avoids the truth of turning our lives in their entirety over to Christ, and serving Christ within the body of Christ. The false teaching is called "easy believism" and misses the message of scripture completely.

Amen, I agree wholeheartedly thank you for kind of clearing that up for me

 

[Benjamin]

I guess I hadn't read through all the replies in the thread as I thought I had; I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here [maybe poking fun at me, that's ok, I'm easy!], but if I'm reading the statement correctly, it just says WE cannot judge anothers salvation, and that, as another poster said, perserverance proves salvation, not provides it.....

I like to tease sometimes . You were saying the Arminian position on eternal security helped sway you to Calvinism. What I posted is from the Remonstrants 5 Articles and is giving the Arminian position on eternal security that they were not resolute in their opinion that one could become apostate in from the regenerative state. Just wouldn't want to see you being swayed on false pretenses is all :smilewinkgrin:.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

I like to tease sometimes . You were saying the Arminian position on eternal security helped sway you to Calvinism. What I posted is from the Remonstrants 5 Articles and is giving the Arminian position on eternal security that they were not resolute in their opinion that one could become apostate in from the regenerative state. Just wouldn't want to see you being swayed on false pretenses is all :smilewinkgrin:.

Amen , and thank you for clearing that up for me--I was under the pretense that Arminian theology was based on the opposition of eternal security of the believer, so I was really wrong for a lot of years! I truly want to be a Bible believer, I don't preach nor totally understand Calvinism [I preach the Bible], but having studied [in my 16 years since my calling] MacArthur and Sproul, I don't necessarily embrace those doctrines [of election, grace, etc], but I believe them only because I believe the Bible....I really find them incredibly hard to debate either way actually, as I'm not sure what the importance of being right or wrong one way or another truly is.....It doesn't affect my preaching or witness or evangelistic beliefs.....but I am enjoying reading all of the posts which are teaching me [right, wrong, or indifferent]! God bless

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet men are born unable to hear that appeal unless first made able by God, according to your view, thus making such an appeal appear disingenuous at best.

It would be like Noah being angry at the sin of his generation and putting a drug in their drinking water making deaf to his words and thus unable to reply to his appeal and then walking out among the people begging them to get on the boat. It is utterly ridiculously and disingenuous.

Now, you may disagree with that analogy, but tell me how it doesn't accurately represent what God does for all practical purposes? Because of the Fall, he decided to make all people born deaf to his appeal and then he goes around making an appeal to be reconciled as if its meant for everyone to hear. How is that not accurate?

skan,
[QUOTEbut tell me how it doesn't accurately represent what God does for all practical purposes?][/QUOTE]

This is an unhealthy view of God. This is an unhealthy questioning of God's design, and God's righteous judgement.
Those who resist calvinism generally are like those who wrongly view Gods purpose.

Because of the Fall, he decided

the fall did not make God change anything that he had already planned...your language betrays your error.

 

[Winman]

skan,

This is an unhealthy view of God. This is an unhealthy questioning of God's design, and God's righteous judgement.

Those who resist calvinism generally are like those who wrongly view Gods purpose.

the fall did not make God change anything that he had already planned...your language betrays your error.

What is unhealthy is NOT questioning such a monstrous doctrine.

If men are born sinners through no fault or choice of their own, and if the only thing they can do is sin, it is completely unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

Do we execute a man born blind because he cannot see? That's the kind of thing Hitler did, he executed handicapped persons. Google "Action T4"

And you think it is wrong to question such a doctrine? I am amazed any intelligent person cannot question this.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

What is unhealthy is NOT questioning such a monstrous doctrine.

If men are born sinners through no fault or choice of their own, and if the only thing they can do is sin, it is completely unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

Do we execute a man born blind because he cannot see? That's the kind of thing Hitler did, he executed handicapped persons. Google "Action T4"

And you think it is wrong to question such a doctrine? I am amazed any intelligent person cannot question this.

Hello Winman, I have to first concede I don't understand all the debates between Calvinist and Arminian, and there are, I'm sure, several strains of each and I don't know where I fit actually [kind of an unfit misfit ]; but, unless I'm missing something, I cannot believe the God of creation put us down here without a plan [we will agree on that], that His plan will succeed [we will all agree on that], can't we agree He has foreknowledge? And therein lies the discussion, if I'm not missing the boat somewhere.....Do you believe God has foreknowledge? Just curious.....God bless

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Yet men are born unable to hear that appeal unless first made able by God, according to your view, thus making such an appeal appear disingenuous at best.

It would be like Noah being angry at the sin of his generation and putting a drug in their drinking water making deaf to his words and thus unable to reply to his appeal and then walking out among the people begging them to get on the boat. It is utterly ridiculously and disingenuous.

Now, you may disagree with that analogy, but tell me how it doesn't accurately represent what God does for all practical purposes? Because of the Fall, he decided to make all people born deaf to his appeal and then he goes around making an appeal to be reconciled as if its meant for everyone to hear. How is that not accurate?

Hello again Skandelon! I have been trying to study different threads trying to figure out various debate points and I'm still a ways away ; I don't agree with this analogy or at least I don't look at life that way, because we are still commanded to preach the Gospel to all the world; as I said to Winman above, I trust God has foreknowledge. Knowing that, we could become cynical and say, well, why did God allow that person to be born, etc....or we can embrace the Gospel and try to win others, but understanding not all will come to Christ....I always tell my congregation, if you are truly born again, you should thank God every day, because there are a LOT of people who aren't and for whatever reason, have no desire to be....

 

[Skandelon]

I don't agree with this analogy

I don't either, but I'm asking how it is misrepresentative of Calvinism.

because we are still commanded to preach the Gospel to all the world;

So, sticking with the analogy with Noah, that would be like his commanding his kids to go tell the drugged people to get on the boat, right? How does that avoid the argument of it being disingenuous?

as I said to Winman above, I trust God has foreknowledge Knowing that, we could become cynical

I think most people can see the clear distinction between Noah merely foreknowing that many will reject him and giving them a drug so that they will certainly reject him, don't you?

I always tell my congregation, if you are truly born again, you should thank God every day, because there are a LOT of people who aren't and for whatever reason, have no desire to be....

But Calvinism doesn't say "for whatever reason." It teaches that the reason is ultimately because they were not elected by God, born again and thus remain in their natural totally unable condition.

 

[Winman]

Hello Winman, I have to first concede I don't understand all the debates between Calvinist and Arminian, and there are, I'm sure, several strains of each and I don't know where I fit actually [kind of an unfit misfit ]; but, unless I'm missing something, I cannot believe the God of creation put us down here without a plan [we will agree on that], that His plan will succeed [we will all agree on that], can't we agree He has foreknowledge? And therein lies the discussion, if I'm not missing the boat somewhere.....Do you believe God has foreknowledge? Just curious.....God bless

Yes, I believe God has foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not and elects those who believe.

But I do not believe God's foreknowledge determines what will be.

I have given the example of Nathanael in Jn 1:44-51. Look at what is said and the language used, I do not believe it accidental.

In vs. 47 it says Jesus SAW Nathanael coming to him. Compare this to the father in Lk 15:20 who saw his son coming home in repentance. This is foreknowledge.

In the same verse Jesus calls Nathanael a true Israelite. Compare this to Rom 2:28-29, 9:6-13, and especially 11:1-5. This is foreknowledge, Jesus knew Nathanael would believe, he was elect.

In vs. 48 we see Nathanael was shocked and asked Jesus, "Whence KNOWEST thou me?" This is foreknowledge, compare to Rom 8:29.

Jesus answered, BEFORE that Philip CALLED thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW THEE. This is foreknowledge, Jesus saw Nathanael and knew him before he was called. See Rom 8:29-30

Now, IN TIME, Nathanael believes on Jesus. See Rom 8:29-30. Jesus saw and knew Nathanael before he was called. He knew he would believe calling him an Israelite indeed (true Israelite). And when he believed he was justified.