Arminianism and Calvinism

[SheepWhisperer]

Post #49 and Post # 53.

And what is wrong with using colored text to make it easier to distinguish my answer to each point?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

1Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Yes, and I also said............
"And he[God] gave everyone the capacity for faith in something or we wouldn't have folk believing in Allah, Buddah, Krishna etc."

1Corinthians 12..........
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will...........

And that verse is talking about God's dispersing of "gifts" to believers. Sir, concerning salvation, God's will is that every man be saved. The Bible says so.

 

[TCassidy]

"And he[God] gave everyone the capacity for faith in something or we wouldn't have folk believing in Allah, Buddah, Krishna etc."

So you are equating belief in a pagan deity with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior?

And that verse is talking about God's dispersing of "gifts" to believers. Sir, concerning salvation, God's will is that every man be saved. The Bible says so.

Exactly. And faith is one of those gifts of the Spirit that is given to every person as the Lord sees fit.

 

[TCassidy]

And what is wrong with using colored text to make it easier to distinguish my answer to each point?

That is what the quote function is for. Use it.

 

[JonC]

That is where we disagree, I can find no other passages that show faith as a gift.

Yes, this is where we disagree. I think it is because where you view grace as included in salvation (sides of the same coin) I believe faith should also be included.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

So you are equating belief in a pagan deity with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior?

Exactly. And faith is one of those gifts of the Spirit that is given to every person as the Lord sees fit.

No sir, that's not what I meant.

 

[utilyan]

Does God want Calvinist to sin?

So Calvinist don't sin ever again.

Or do you think you are greater then God's Sovereignty and God can't get what he wants?

 

[JonC]

Does God want Calvinist to sin?

So Calvinist don't sin ever again.

Or do you think you are greater then God's Sovereignty and God can't get what he wants?

Are you suggesting that God wants men to sin, that men don't sin, or that men are greater than God?

The part where you go wrong is in the assumption that the nature of God's desires are as those of a child.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Does God want Calvinist to sin?

So Calvinist don't sin ever again.

Or do you think you are greater then God's Sovereignty and God can't get what he wants?

Yes, it seems they think that unless God controled every little detail, or if something "thwarted" "overpowered" or "frustrated" His will, He would be "weak". I will tell you on the authority of the Word of God, that God does NOT want "Calvinists" to sin. Bu they sin just like everybody else. Is God's sovereignty being "defeated" or "frustrated" by these sinners?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Are you suggesting that God wants men to sin, that men don't sin, or that men are greater than God?

The part where you go wrong is in the assumption that the nature of God's desires are as those of a child.

I'll speak for him: He's suggesting none of the three. What he's asking is: If you say that God's will is "irresistible" at the point of salvation. why is it resistible by the Calvinist after the Calvinist gets saved? Is that right brother? Or something to that effect?

 

[Reynolds]

Read James White's book, especially his dealing with that silly illustration. It was not only thoroughly debunked, it was shredded.

Your advice is usually summarize the argument instead of merely mentioning a book. I don't remember his argument being convincing or shredding. Maybe you could highlight his "shredding" points.

 

[JonC]

I'll speak for him: He's suggesting none of the three. What he's asking is: If you say that God's will is "irresistible" at the point of salvation. why is it resistible by the Calvinist after the Calvinist gets saved? Is that right brother? Or something to that effect?

Exactly. And that is your answer as well - none of those three.

If I had seriously believed that my questions reflected your view then I would only have proved myself incompetent in understanding your position.

 

[TCassidy]

No sir, that's not what I meant.

Then why did you imply that believing on Christ as Lord and Savior is the equated to believing in the pagans you mentioned?

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, it seems they think that unless God controled every little detail, or if something "thwarted" "overpowered" or "frustrated" His will, He would be "weak".

You display a serious failure of understanding God's Sovereignty.

I will tell you on the authority of the Word of God, that God does NOT want "Calvinists" to sin.

We all know that.

Bu they sin just like everybody else.

We all know that too.

Is God's sovereignty being "defeated" or "frustrated" by these sinners?

No. You seem unaware of the difference between God's decretal will and God's permissive will.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

You display a serious failure of understanding God's Sovereignty.

We all know that.

We all know that too.

No. You seem unaware of the difference between God's decretal will and God's permissive will.

Ok, fair enough, enlighten me.

Which of the two "wills" was this one?
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And which "will" was this?
2 Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

...and this one...
1 Timothy 2:4 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Reynolds]

1Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

What's your point? The first passage is a specific faith, the second a general faith.

The first passage says "to another."
The second passage says "to every man"
They are two different things.

 

[TCassidy]

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God's permissive will allowed them to rebel.

And which "will" was this?
2 Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's permissive will allows them to rebel.

...and this one...
1 Timothy 2:4 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's permissive will allows rebellion.

This all seems rather self-evident, doesn't it?

In the first verse you quote, if God decreed they would gather, they would gather.

In the second verse you quote, if God decreed they would not perish, they would not perish.

In the third verse you quote, if God decreed they would come, they would come.

Unless you do not believe in the Omnipotence of God. Do you?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you are equating belief in a pagan deity with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior?

Exactly. And faith is one of those gifts of the Spirit that is given to every person as the Lord sees fit.

One could JUST teach.preach from Roman 8 and 11, and Ephesians 2, and there would be no dount that salvation from start to finish is all a gift from the Lord unto us.
Even the Apostle paul, greatest theologian in history, was in awe and silenced by that!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

God's permissive will allowed them to rebel.

God's permissive will allows them to rebel.

God's permissive will allows rebellion.

This all seems rather self-evident, doesn't it?

In the first verse you quote, if God decreed they would gather, they would gather.

In the second verse you quote, if God decreed they would not perish, they would not perish.

In the third verse you quote, if God decreed they would come, they would come.

Unless you do not believe in the Omnipotence of God. Do you?

No sir,
the first scripture I quoted, Matthew 23:37 plainly tells us that Jesus wanted them to do something........... but they wanted otherwise.

The second verse I quoted 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God does not want any to perish.........and wants all to repent

And the third verse I quoted 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly tells us that God wants all men to be saved.

 

[TCassidy]

No sir,
the first scripture I quoted, Matthew 23:37 plainly tells us that Jesus wanted them to do something........... but they wanted otherwise.

Yes, but He allows that to rebel.

The second verse I quoted 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God does not want any to perish.........and wants all to repent

But he allows them to refuse.

And the third verse I quoted 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly tells us that God wants all men to be saved.

But allows them to reject.

You do not believe God is impotent, do you?