Arminianism

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Lol, free-willers will not admit to belonging to any category, it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. @Aaron came up with the label "non-Cal" years ago and they don't whine too much about that. Monergism labels them as 'Synergist':

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

I'm satisfied to call them 'free-willers'.

Do you have a definitive definition for the "regenerate man" for either Calvinists or Arminians or both.

The thread was intended to discuss and explain classic Arminianism. AC posted “The Five Articles of Remonstrance” way back in post #7.

The synergism definition doesn't apply for this particular point (Article 4) unless referring to post-regeneration regeneration.

 

[agedman]

And yet you still think that God would not in His sovereignty give man a free will which the bible text requires. As I have said if man does not have the ability to make choices then why all the verses that require man to make them. Is God just playing a joke on man?

Do you think that the Holy Spirit only convicts those that will trust God? Why do some on here want to limit God to what they think He can do and at the same time insist that He is sovereign. Some people have to make up their minds. Is God sovereign or is He not?

Man certainly has freedom of choice but is as the ox who may select from all the master grants, but cannot of its own volition choose to be a fish or bird.

Believers are created in Christ.

You desire some design in which you perceive God as fair, but neglect all are condemned already. God isn’t obligated to redeem any.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think the OP is correct in that Arminianism is portrayed often as something other than what it is. I would have thought as a long time Baptist that the argument would have been over the once saved always saved aspect. Instead there isn't even any consensus on what it is to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Here is where we disagree.

You proclaim that Christianity starts with you doing something.

I proclaim that Christianity starts with God doing something.

Notice, however, that even in your proclamation, God has to exist first. If God does not reveal Jesus Christ to you...you cannot believe.

God always is the initiator. There is no other way and even your proclamation declares this ultimate truth..."Christianity starts with God doing something."

Austin are you now saying that we are Christians before we trust in Christ Jesus. Your theology is really leading you down a wrong path.

Now why are you shocked that I would say God starts something. Read Rom 1:20 or Jn 16:8-11. But what you always leave out is that man has to trust in Christ Jesus to be saved, Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:13-14, but then again you think God drags people into heaven.

You have a very low view of the love of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Austin are you now saying that we are Christians before we trust in Christ Jesus. Your theology is really leading you down a wrong path.

Now why are you shocked that I would say God starts something. Read Rom 1:20 or Jn 16:8-11. But what you always leave out is that man has to trust in Christ Jesus to be saved, Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:13-14, but then again you think God drags people into heaven.

You have a very low view of the love of God.

God the Father chooses us to be saved in Christ while we were still yet lost sinners!

 

[Silverhair]

Man certainly has freedom of choice but is as the ox who may select from all the master grants, but cannot of its own volition choose to be a fish or bird.

Believers are created in Christ.

You desire some design in which you perceive God as fair, but neglect all are condemned already. God isn’t obligated to redeem any.

I agree God is not obligated to save anyone. But man is not an ox is he. God expects man to make choices.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

An ox does not have that ability does it. Can an ox do this?
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
or this
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Some theologies that some on here profess to hold may think man is just an unthinking animal or puppet but God does not. He expects man to think and make real choices.

 

[Silverhair]

God the Father chooses us to be saved in Christ while we were still yet lost sinners!

You got that right, He will save those of us that trust in Christ Jesus. If we do not trust in His son we are not saved.
Joh 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Notice in this text it makes it clear it is not just knowing about Christ Jesus that saves you it is trusting in Him for your salvation that does.

 

[AustinC]

Do you have a definitive definition for the "regenerate man" for either Calvinists or Arminians or both.

The thread was intended to discuss and explain classic Arminianism. AC posted “The Five Articles of Remonstrance” way back in post #7.

The synergism definition doesn't apply for this particular point (Article 4) unless referring to post-regeneration regeneration.

Article 4 deals directly with synergism.
Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.

Here we see a declaration that humans can actively determine how God can effectively extend his grace.

 

[AustinC]

I agree God is not obligated to save anyone. But man is not an ox is he. God expects man to make choices.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

An ox does not have that ability does it. Can an ox do this?
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
or this
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Some theologies that some on here profess to hold may think man is just an unthinking animal or puppet but God does not. He expects man to think and make real choices.

Perhaps you are unaware that Romans 1 shows us that given no movement of God, humans will always substitute a creation for the Creator and worship the creation.
You seem bent on not quoting the whole of scripture.
Romans 1:21-25
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Article 4 deals directly with synergism.

Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.

Here we see a declaration that humans can actively determine how God can effectively extend his grace.

It would help if your posts contained sense and relevancy to the discussion, and in this case, that the grace of God would override their gross error that only truth be present within them.

Somehow, the resistance to that possibility seems rather high. Perhaps the blame for the awful results lies in rejecting this synergism.

 

[agedman]

I agree God is not obligated to save anyone. But man is not an ox is he. God expects man to make choices.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

An ox does not have that ability does it. Can an ox do this?
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
or this
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Some theologies that some on here profess to hold may think man is just an unthinking animal or puppet but God does not. He expects man to think and make real choices.

​

I admit that, from a certain human perspective, there is a mite of traction in your view; however, the bottom falls out when one suggests any measure of human will is involved, for such would mock John 1.

9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

When this is placed in agreement with Romans 10:

... 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? …

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

It remains then that by nature none desire God, but when faith comes by the hearing of the Word of God, it is then the person may express what has been placed by God in the heart.

The rest (such as confession, repentance, …) are all as a result of the work already performed by the Word of God in the heart. “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart…”.

 

[agedman]

It would help if your posts contained sense and relevancy to the discussion, and in this case, that the grace of God would override their gross error that only truth be present within them.

Somehow, the resistance to that possibility seems rather high. Perhaps the blame for the awful results lies in rejecting this synergism.

I reject such “sinner-gist” because it involves an aspect of some “Grace” that the Scriptures never state nor support.

Prevenient Grace is a human construction that has no Biblical foundation, not even a prof-text.

If one removes the prevenient (sometimes called preceding) Grace, the whole of Armin. can be somewhat aligned with a moderate Calvinistic thinker.

Another sticky though is the presentation that humans are not truly depraved, but have some innate ability to become unshackled from slavery to sin and death and God seeing such effort and desire grants some kind of credit toward salvation.

This is as prevenient Grace in having no Scriptural support.

 

[DaveXR650]

Another sticky though is the presentation that humans are not truly depraved, but have some innate ability to become unshackled from slavery to sin and death and God seeing such effort and desire grants some kind of credit toward salvation.

Well said!

 

[agedman]

Perhaps Joshua needs to be brought into the discussion.

In the OT how were folks to approach God? Was it not through the temple and bringing service, offerings, and duty to the temple?

So, when Joshua gives the people a choice, it was NOT concerning the salvation of individuals, but the salvation of the households, the tribes, the nation by continuing to the aspects of temple worship with a true heart of devotion and service.

This is clearly shown in the context of the passage as Joshua points out the service done to foreign Gods in contrast to that of the Lord.

14“Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of [d]the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of [e]the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

16So the people answered and said: “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lordto serve other gods; 17for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the people through whom we passed. 18And the Lord drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.”

19But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good.”

21And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord!”

22So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.”

And they said, “We are witnesses!”

23“Now therefore,” he said, “put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the Lord God of Israel.”

24And the people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and His voice we will obey!”

25So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
​

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1 am EST (Tue) / 10 pm PST (Mon)

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps you are unaware that Romans 1 shows us that given no movement of God, humans will always substitute a creation for the Creator and worship the creation.
You seem bent on not quoting the whole of scripture.
Romans 1:21-25
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

How are you so blind? >>You seem bent on not quoting the whole of scripture.<< This comment coming from you is funny. I point out what God requires of man for salvation and you just ignore it. Did you think I have not read Rom 1:21-25 and what does that add to what Rom 1:20 says.

Austin your really working hard to come up with a negative comment here.

 

[Silverhair]

​

I admit that, from a certain human perspective, there is a mite of traction in your view; however, the bottom falls out when one suggests any measure of human will is involved, for such would mock John 1.

9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

When this is placed in agreement with Romans 10:

... 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? …

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

It remains then that by nature none desire God, but when faith comes by the hearing of the Word of God, it is then the person may express what has been placed by God in the heart.

The rest (such as confession, repentance, …) are all as a result of the work already performed by the Word of God in the heart. “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart…”.

Well you want the believe that you are saved before you have faith but the bible just will not agree with you, so I will just stick with the bible. I also find it strange that you think God has to give you faith although He requires us to have faith before we are saved.

 

[AustinC]

Austin are you now saying that we are Christians before we trust in Christ Jesus. Your theology is really leading you down a wrong path.

Now why are you shocked that I would say God starts something. Read Rom 1:20 or Jn 16:8-11. But what you always leave out is that man has to trust in Christ Jesus to be saved, Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:13-14, but then again you think God drags people into heaven.

You have a very low view of the love of God.

What does the Bible say?

For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
~ Romans 8:29-30

Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.
~ Ephesians 1:4-6

Tell me...is that a low view of God that Paul had?

 

[AustinC]

How are you so blind? >>You seem bent on not quoting the whole of scripture.<< This comment coming from you is funny. I point out what God requires of man for salvation and you just ignore it. Did you think I have not read Rom 1:21-25 and what does that add to what Rom 1:20 says.

Austin your really working hard to come up with a negative comment here.

Here's the whole. You should see how this all connects.

But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
~ Romans 1:18-25

 

[DaveXR650]

Well you want the believe that you are saved before you have faith but the bible just will not agree with you, so I will just stick with the bible. I also find it strange that you think God has to give you faith although He requires us to have faith before we are saved.

You are not saved before you have faith. Calvinism doesn't teach that. The Westminster Confession of Faith Ch. 8, sect. 8 Christ purchases redemption for those he chooses to save, he reveals to them how to be saved by the Word, then He persuades them by His Spirit "to believe and obey". Calvinism does teach, and I think it's right, that you did not figure all this out for yourself. Armenians teach part of that but they seem to believe that Christ purchases redemption for everyone, they have the way of salvation revealed by the Word, the Holy Spirit tries to persuades them to believe but their will is actually sovereign and men still decide to ignore or resist this work of the Spirit. There are verses that seem to support that also. I don't think that would be a big heresy as long as you don't insist that by your own virtue you can figure all this out and come and get right with God. In that case you are moving toward a Pelagian view which is considered a heresy by both Calvinists, Armenians and Catholics.