Arminianism

[agedman]

Dave I think you and I think a lot alike. God seeks us and we seek Him and I think to many people get caught up in the fluff. Even after many many years of study I still have more questions than answers.

Typically the Articles concerning the Arm. Thinking call for something called prevenient Grace, which is not found in the Scriptures.

They assume that a fair God would afford all humans equality in choosing, yet at no point does the God of Heaven have human values in view when He makes purposeful decisions.

There must then be the work of the Holy Spirit causing such as God chooses to have open ears (understanding) while one preaches from the Scripture. For from that beginning is granted to that person the measure of faith from God for the purpose that God determines is necessary.

I have been called a Calvinist, yet disagree with the limited atonement as presented by the Dort folks and modern Calvinistic thinking folks.

 

[AustinC]

Actually you did not need to write that much as the answer in right in the verse.
Rom 5:1 Therefore,
since we have been made right in God's sight by faith,
we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

All that you referenced is answered in Rom 5:1

But I noted you skipped over this verse
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

and then this verse just confirms what was said
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

So to answer you question, salvation is by Gods grace through or because of our faith. The bible is quite clear if you just read the text.

Here's where we disagree.
You think faith is yours and you invoke it by your willpower.
I think Jesus is the initiator and perfector of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

To fully understand how we are justified by faith, we start with the realization that Jesus initiates faith. Then when we read Paul's glorious explanation of justification by faith alone from Romans 1 to 11, we fully grasp that the faith that justified Abraham and us is the faith that God initiated in us...it's not our faith, it's God's faith in us.

*Romans 3:3,23-28*
True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Look further to Romans 10
Romans 10:17,20
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, “I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”

Silverhair, faith comes from Jesus...it's not your faith.

We disagree because I read the whole Bible and see that faith is a gift and Jesus initiates it. You read the Bible and you think faith is entirely from you.
I am sure you are wrong in your thinking about faith and I am sure you will find that out when you meet Jesus face to face.

 

[Silverhair]

God says "made alive" not just reach out. Give God the glory due His name.
Moreso he says, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ."
That's God speaking, not some man. That's not silly, Silverhair.

Your lack of understanding of scripture is noted. You will just have to spend more time in your studies before you truly understand what they say.
You keep putting your own spin on the text instead of just reading what is there.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

Did you miss the part of the verse that say "by Faith" note it does not say by Gods' faith or faith that God gave you. Just trust the text Austin, just trust the text.

 

[Silverhair]

Typically the Articles concerning the Arm. Thinking call for something called prevenient Grace, which is not found in the Scriptures.

They assume that a fair God would afford all humans equality in choosing, yet at no point does the God of Heaven have human values in view when He makes purposeful decisions.

There must then be the work of the Holy Spirit causing such as God chooses to have open ears (understanding) while one preaches from the Scripture. For from that beginning is granted to that person the measure of faith from God for the purpose that God determines is necessary.

I have been called a Calvinist, yet disagree with the limited atonement as presented by the Dort folks and modern Calvinistic thinking folks.

And yet you still think that God would not in His sovereignty give man a free will which the bible text requires. As I have said if man does not have the ability to make choices then why all the verses that require man to make them. Is God just playing a joke on man?

Do you think that the Holy Spirit only convicts those that will trust God? Why do some on here want to limit God to what they think He can do and at the same time insist that He is sovereign. Some people have to make up their minds. Is God sovereign or is He not?

 

[Silverhair]

Here's where we disagree.
You think faith is yours and you invoke it by your willpower.
I think Jesus is the initiator and perfector of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

To fully understand how we are justified by faith, we start with the realization that Jesus initiates faith. Then when we read Paul's glorious explanation of justification by faith alone from Romans 1 to 11, we fully grasp that the faith that justified Abraham and us is the faith that God initiated in us...it's not our faith, it's God's faith in us.

*Romans 3:3,23-28*
True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Look further to Romans 10
Romans 10:17,20
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, “I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”

Silverhair, faith comes from Jesus...it's not your faith.

We disagree because I read the whole Bible and see that faith is a gift and Jesus initiates it. You read the Bible and you think faith is entirely from you.
I am sure you are wrong in your thinking about faith and I am sure you will find that out when you meet Jesus face to face.

So if God has to give you this faith as you posit and we know that God desires all to come to a saving faith then is your version of God conflicted or absent minded?

Austin you want to have a limited sovereign God that can only do what you want Him to do. You should really trust the bible and realize that God is much greater than you think he is.

 

[AustinC]

So if God has to give you this faith as you posit and we know that God desires all to come to a saving faith then is your version of God conflicted or absent minded?

Austin you want to have a limited sovereign God that can only do what you want Him to do. You should really trust the bible and realize that God is much greater than you think he is.

And here you show us that you abandon scripture as your source of answer and resort to man-made theory to make conclusions. Don't tell us you ascribe to scripture alone when here you abandon scripture.

Show us how humans have their own faith, even though Hebrews 12:2 tells us that faith is initiated by Jesus and completed by Jesus.

Do you trust the Bible when God tells us this?

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

Why don't all come to God, if all have innate faith that they merely have to tap into in order to believe?
Why has God not broadcast the gospel to every single human on the planet since he desires all humans to initiate this innate faith that they all have?
Certainly, if your view is right, then all humans must already have heard the gospel in every nook and cranny of the globe since God unequivocally desires it for all humanity.
Now, tell us where this innate faith is located that has nothing to do with Jesus authoring it.

 

[Silverhair]

Show us how humans have their own faith, even though Hebrews 12:2 tells us that faith is initiated by Jesus and completed by Jesus.

Do you trust the Bible when God tells us this?

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

I could ask you the same question. Read the text in context that will help. Our Christian walk starts with our trust in Christ Jesus and carries through to our glorification. We are to fix our eyes on Jesus, not as a finish line, but as the perfect example of how to run the race. How did you miss that in the text?

[QUOTE="AustinC, post: 2751307, member: 16342"Why don't all come to God, if all have innate faith that they merely have to tap into in order to believe?
Why has God not broadcast the gospel to every single human on the planet since he desires all humans to initiate this innate faith that they all have?
Certainly, if your view is right, then all humans must already have heard the gospel in every nook and cranny of the globe since God unequivocally desires it for all humanity.
Now, tell us where this innate faith is located that has nothing to do with Jesus authoring it.[/QUOTE]

Austin you love your red herrings. My question for you is why do you think that man cannot come to faith in Christ Jesus? If God thinks man can trust in Him why do you deny it?
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You continue to fight against scripture. Why you feel that is correct I do not know. Read Rom 1:18-20. God will judge man because they can know Him. You are fighting against God when you deny what He says and instead hold to your man made theology.

 

[DaveXR650]

Show us how humans have their own faith, even though Hebrews 12:2 tells us that faith is initiated by Jesus and completed by Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2 refers to "faith" as the elements of our belief, not the saving faith that an individual exercises. You can tell from the rest of the verse.

 

[AustinC]

Hebrews 12:2 refers to "faith" as the elements of our belief, not the saving faith that an individual exercises. You can tell from the rest of the verse.

Hebrews is addressing already believing saints who need encouragement to not drift. This is why Hebrews 12:2 comes in to assure them that Jesus initiated their faith and will complete their faith. Connect the thought of the writer back to the rest of the book and especially chapter 11. Go forward to see the discipline of God, working to grow disciplined faith through perseverance.

The key difference between the Arminian and Calvinist is who initiates faith and activates faith to believe.

Is faith a latent, innate, tool that lies dormant in all humanity or is faith a special gift God gives to those God is saving?

 

[AustinC]

I could ask you the same question. Read the text in context that will help. Our Christian walk starts with our trust in Christ Jesus and carries through to our glorification.

Here is where we disagree.

You proclaim that Christianity starts with you doing something.

I proclaim that Christianity starts with God doing something.

Notice, however, that even in your proclamation, God has to exist first. If God does not reveal Jesus Christ to you...you cannot believe.

God always is the initiator. There is no other way and even your proclamation declares this ultimate truth..."Christianity starts with God doing something."

 

[Yeshua1]

No. Not the will of man trumping God. That is a misunderstanding of Arminianism.

It is important when comparing doctrines to look at the opposing view within its own context. We have to be honest with the opposition in order to be honest with our own view.

The will of a lost sinner overcomes the desires of God

 

[Yeshua1]

more misleading LIES!

You hold that it is the will and desire of God that all lost will get saved, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a confounding use of "will".
God's will, in the sense of "desire", is frustrated all the time.
Every sin of man is man's will trumping God's will (desire).
Unless you think God wills the sins.

ALL that Gird determines to happen will happen, including salvation!

 

[DaveXR650]

This is why Hebrews 12:2 comes in to assure them that Jesus initiated their faith and will complete their faith.

I don't find in the scripture such a worry about who initiated their faith. What some are doing on here is in an effort to give God all the credit for our salvation they go beyond the scripture and treat faith as something you don't do. There seems to be no worry in the scripture about that. The reason I think is that faith by it's proper definition is not a work and it is not helpful to start claiming that it is a work if someone says they exercised faith. Faith is put opposite works, good deeds or religious ceremonies and there was not a lot of worry about the origin of it. Faith in itself is a belief that you are completely undone and in need of mercy - by definition it cannot be a work.

If someone comes claiming that faith was the good thing they supplied then they are looking at what faith is wrong. That's their problem - not that they are guilty of some kind of legalism if they come to Christ.

The Hebrew Christians were not worried about where their faith came from. They needed further assurance on what the faith was. And it is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith and the second part of the verse explains specifically what the elements of the faith are. Do you put your eternal destiny in the hands of Christ or go back to the blood of bulls and goats. (But there was no concern that someone would say "you" had to have faith.)

I'm not saying that God is not responsible for us having faith. But I am saying that this was not a big concern in any of the creeds, teaching etc. for the first 1500 years. What surprised me was that Calvin himself in talking about Ephesians 2:8-9 did not spend a lot of time making sure that they understood that the faith was not their own. He seemed to be concerned that salvation was not of works.

 

[AustinC]

I don't find in the scripture such a worry about who initiated their faith. What some are doing on here is in an effort to give God all the credit for our salvation they go beyond the scripture and treat faith as something you don't do. There seems to be no worry in the scripture about that. The reason I think is that faith by it's proper definition is not a work and it is not helpful to start claiming that it is a work if someone says they exercised faith. Faith is put opposite works, good deeds or religious ceremonies and there was not a lot of worry about the origin of it. Faith in itself is a belief that you are completely undone and in need of mercy - by definition it cannot be a work.

If someone comes claiming that faith was the good thing they supplied then they are looking at what faith is wrong. That's their problem - not that they are guilty of some kind of legalism if they come to Christ.

The Hebrew Christians were not worried about where their faith came from. They needed further assurance on what the faith was. And it is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith and the second part of the verse explains specifically what the elements of the faith are. Do you put your eternal destiny in the hands of Christ or go back to the blood of bulls and goats. (But there was no concern that someone would say "you" had to have faith.)

I'm not saying that God is not responsible for us having faith. But I am saying that this was not a big concern in any of the creeds, teaching etc. for the first 1500 years. What surprised me was that Calvin himself in talking about Ephesians 2:8-9 did not spend a lot of time making sure that they understood that the faith was not their own. He seemed to be concerned that salvation was not of works.

Dave, is faith not a gift, given to us by God so that we can do the good work which He has ordained for us to do?

Ephesians 2:8-10
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[George Antonios]

ALL that Gird determines to happen will happen, including salvation!

Ships in the night...

 

[kyredneck]

no definitive Arminian definition available

Lol, free-willers will not admit to belonging to any category, it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. @Aaron came up with the label "non-Cal" years ago and they don't whine too much about that. Monergism labels them as 'Synergist':

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

I'm satisfied to call them 'free-willers'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ALL that Gird determines to happen will happen, including salvation!

Who’s Gird? Is that short for Girdle?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, is faith not a gift, given to us by God so that we can do the good work which He has ordained for us to do?

It is a gift but the way the WCF puts it: The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the word...etc..

"The elect are enabled to believe". If you aren't careful you go beyond "and that not of yourselves" to "not your own". There is a huge difference. The folks who say faith is their own are OK as long as they only mean that THEY have to actually exercise faith and they are not claiming some kind of meritorious attribute that they bring to God. If they are claiming such an attribute then the essence of their faith may be false because it is not a complete acknowledgement of their own condition and so is an indication that God's spirit has not been at work in them at all. But you incorrectly diagnose the problem if you say what they are doing wrong is personally having faith. The fact is they can and they must.

 

[AustinC]

It is a gift but the way the WCF puts it: The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the word...etc..

"The elect are enabled to believe". If you aren't careful you go beyond "and that not of yourselves" to "not your own". There is a huge difference. The folks who say faith is their own are OK as long as they only mean that THEY have to actually exercise faith and they are not claiming some kind of meritorious attribute that they bring to God. If they are claiming such an attribute then the essence of their faith may be false because it is not a complete acknowledgement of their own condition and so is an indication that God's spirit has not been at work in them at all. But you incorrectly diagnose the problem if you say what they are doing wrong is personally having faith. The fact is they can and they must.

The gift of faith is given to that person by God so that it is our own faith. That's how gifts are given. We agree.
The issue is not who is the giver or the recipient. The issue is when is faith given and to whom. Is faith given at conception to all humans so that at anytime the person so chooses they can activate that faith (and conversely choose to deactivate faith) or is faith given at salvation to those God chooses and is activated by God so that the recipient can use this gift henceforth?

I argue the latter and point to Romans, Ephesians and Hebrews as letters that confirm this argument.