Arminianism

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Was this written by a Calvinist? ... (Ephesians 2:1-9)

Looks like a classic case of posting obtusely and talking past, just as your earlier post looks like a classic case of cherry-picking for the purpose of creating a straw man.

How about answering the question put to you? And also provide the definitive Calvinistic definition of "regenerate man."

 

[AustinC]

Looks like a classic case of posting obtusely and talking past, just as your earlier post looks like a classic case of cherry-picking for the purpose of creating a straw man.

How about answering the question put to you? And also provide the definitive Calvinistic definition of "regenerate man."

Thanks for the link. You wrote:
"First Question: What is meant by " the regenerate man himself"?"

Answer:
2 Corinthians 5:17-21
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

It is right in scripture for us. This is why I find "Calvinist" to be a boogeyman used by those who reject what God expresses in his Word.

 

[Silverhair]

I bolded the continued false assertion you make with literally zero factual evidence on your part. The only possibility of you being correct is if you deny that all the writers in the Bible wrote by inspiration of God. Do you deny the Bible's inspiration by God?

Yes, Silverhair, quote all the scripture that teaches that humans exercise innate saving faith from their own will. Quote the entire bible passage that teaches the whole of scripture. So far, you have always picked one verse and sometimes half a sentence as your prooftext for your man-centered interpretation of salvation. So provide the full context of God's Word for us. I truly want to see how you go from Genesis to Revelation, showing human faith expressed before God chooses to work upon that person's heart. Go for it, Silverhair. This will be fun.

Since I have given you a number of scriptures, that you just toss away as they do not fit with your failed ideas give me one good reason that I should waste my time on you. Would you actually trust what the bible says, I doubt it. All you have done with anyone that points your errors out to you is comment with an LOL. You are beyond help. One question when have I ever said man has an innate saving will. This is just another example of how you posit your red herrings.

Now I am sure you will disagree with all these but I would not expect anything different from you.

Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom_5:2 through whom {Jesus} also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His {Jesus} blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom_5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His {Jesus} life.

Rom_5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom_5:12 Therefore, just as through one man {Adam} sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Rom_5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one {Adam} who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Rom_5:17 For if by the one man's {Adam} offense death reigned through the one, {Adam} much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Rom_5:18 Therefore, as through one man's {Adam} offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's {Jesus} righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Rom_5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And just in case your not sure how salvation comes about

Rom 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Thanks for the link. You wrote:
"First Question: What is meant by " the regenerate man himself"?"

Answer:
2 Corinthians 5:17-21

This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

If that is the definition of the "regenerate man," then why be up in arms about Article 4?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

…This is why I find "Calvinist" to be a boogeyman used by those who reject what God expresses in his Word.

Sounds like an anti-Calvinist attitude, suggesting that all those who identify as Calvinist "reject what God expresses in his Word." Is that what was intended?

 

[DaveXR650]

has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”

If we have the task of reconciling people to him and we can act as Christ's ambassadors and God is actually making an appeal through us - then we need to admit that we are making an appeal to peoples will and there seems to be some choice involved. An "appeal" suggests a "decision". It doesn't bother me because that is the way Puritans preached but I think it would bother some on here. I would like to know if the Arminian thinks the will is autonomous or has enough good in itself to make the right decision - but I won't deny that the Bible clearly teaches a two sided reconciliation. Reconciliation by definition has to involve both parties no matter what the difference in power or right.

 

[AustinC]

Since I have given you a number of scriptures, that you just toss away as they do not fit with your failed ideas give me one good reason that I should waste my time on you. Would you actually trust what the bible says, I doubt it. All you have done with anyone that points your errors out to you is comment with an LOL. You are beyond help. One question when have I ever said man has an innate saving will. This is just another example of how you posit your red herrings.

Now I am sure you will disagree with all these but I would not expect anything different from you.

Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom_5:2 through whom {Jesus} also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His {Jesus} blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom_5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His {Jesus} life.

Rom_5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom_5:12 Therefore, just as through one man {Adam} sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Rom_5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one {Adam} who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Rom_5:17 For if by the one man's {Adam} offense death reigned through the one, {Adam} much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Rom_5:18 Therefore, as through one man's {Adam} offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's {Jesus} righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Rom_5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And just in case your not sure how salvation comes about

Rom 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

These verses are great. What do you imagine they mean?
For instance, why is there a therefore in Romans 5:1?
Let me show you.
Romans 4:1-16,20-25

Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.

Abraham never wavered in believing God’s promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger, and in this he brought glory to God. He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises. And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

 

[Silverhair]

Thanks for the link. You wrote:
"First Question: What is meant by " the regenerate man himself"?"

Answer:
2 Corinthians 5:17-21
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

It is right in scripture for us. This is why I find "Calvinist" to be a boogeyman used by those who reject what God expresses in his Word.

Austin you forgot to bold some other text in your quote.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

There you have it God wants people to make a choice. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”
Paul pleads with them for Christ Jesus, return to me. Is that not asking them to make a choice? But how is that possible or why would God even plead with them under your theology?

 

[AustinC]

The ultimate question is this:
Does a man who has never heard the Word of God have innate faith within himself to believe, or must God speak and call that

If that is the definition of the "regenerate man," then why be up in arms about Article 4?

Why think article 4 is biblical truth?

 

[AustinC]

Austin you forgot to bold some other text in your quote.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

There you have it God wants people to make a choice. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”
Paul pleads with them for Christ Jesus, return to me. Is that not asking them to make a choice? But how is that possible or why would God even plead with them under your theology?

Who will believe that call, Silverhair?
Paul tells us that those whom God makes alive will believe.
Why do you try to deny God his rightful glory, Silverhair?

 

[Silverhair]

If we have the task of reconciling people to him and we can act as Christ's ambassadors and God is actually making an appeal through us - then we need to admit that we are making an appeal to peoples will and there seems to be some choice involved. An "appeal" suggests a "decision". It doesn't bother me because that is the way Puritans preached but I think it would bother some on here. I would like to know if the Arminian thinks the will is autonomous or has enough good in itself to make the right decision - but I won't deny that the Bible clearly teaches a two sided reconciliation. Reconciliation by definition has to involve both parties no matter what the difference in power or right.

I cannot speak for any Arminian but as I see in the bible God reaches out to us via the Holy Spirit, nature etc and with our God given free will man has the ability to accept or reject the invitation. If man does not have the ability to make a choice then why preach the gospel? The answer of "because God commands it" is silly if man has no choice in the matter of who is saved or not. The gospel is to be preached just because man does have a choice and God will hold them responsible for that choice.

 

[Silverhair]

The ultimate question is this:
Does a man who has never heard the Word of God have innate faith within himself to believe, or must God speak and call that

Why think article 4 is biblical truth?

Innate faith would suggest that there is no outside information provided. But the bible is clear that man has such information
Rom 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. NLT

Man does not save himself, God saves a man based upon His response to the information that he has.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The ultimate question is this:
Does a man who has never heard the Word of God have innate faith within himself to believe, or must God speak and call that

Why think article 4 is biblical truth?

Something appears truncated in that "ultimate question."

However, Article 4 is what your post took issue with and what my question was aimed at addressing.

The question is whether Article 4 contradicts biblical truth, and that has not been demonstrated.

While temptations to cherry-pick and create straw man arguments are powerful, they should nonetheless be resisted.

 

[Silverhair]

Who will believe that call, Silverhair?
Paul tells us that those whom God makes alive will believe.
Why do you try to deny God his rightful glory, Silverhair?

Why do you deny that God pleads with man to choose? How does someone responding to the invitation of God take any glory from Him? God is the one that saves us. From your point of view the only way that God can get the glory is if He drags people in to heaven. How would that be glorious? That would seem more like a strong arm approach to me.

 

[DaveXR650]

I cannot speak for any Arminian but as I see in the bible God reaches out to us via the Holy Spirit, nature etc and with our God given free will man has the ability to accept or reject the invitation. If man does not have the ability to make a choice then why preach the gospel? The answer of "because God commands it" is silly if man has no choice in the matter of who is saved or not. The gospel is to be preached just because man does have a choice and God will hold them responsible for that choice.

Yes and it seems that the modern Arminian position at least does allow that this will not happen without the Holy Spirit. The Arminian I think is being careful to try to leave room for people who reject this message and they want to let them reject the message without in any way making God the direct cause of the rejection.

 

[Silverhair]

These verses are great. What do you imagine they mean?
For instance, why is there a therefore in Romans 5:1?
Let me show you.
Romans 4:1-16,20-25

Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.

Abraham never wavered in believing God’s promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger, and in this he brought glory to God. He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises. And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

Actually you did not need to write that much as the answer in right in the verse.
Rom 5:1 Therefore,
since we have been made right in God's sight by faith,
we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

All that you referenced is answered in Rom 5:1

But I noted you skipped over this verse
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

and then this verse just confirms what was said
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

So to answer you question, salvation is by Gods grace through or because of our faith. The bible is quite clear if you just read the text.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes and it seems that the modern Arminian position at least does allow that this will not happen without the Holy Spirit. The Arminian I think is being careful to try to leave room for people who reject this message and they want to let them reject the message without in any way making God the direct cause of the rejection.

When I read the text of the bible I just see that God wants to save but will only save those that will trust in His son.

We see in Matthew both the question and the answer
Mat 16:15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

For me it does not get any clearer than that.

 

[DaveXR650]

And you have to remember that the next verse says that he didn't come up with that on his own. Then 5 verses later Peter really messes up and gets rebuked. That section of scripture shows that God has plans for individuals that will come about because he decides it will. It also shows that God chooses to work with people in real time, working with them in a way that seems to involve them and their wills. Plenty of scripture shows both. Look at Philippians chapter 3 and you see Paul coming to knowledge, then counting everything dung that he may win Christ, then he talks about being apprehended and then he's going to press toward the mark. It's not a thing where God better be happy with my decision yet it's not a thing where I'm chosen so bam, I'm regenerated so I'm OK and don't tell me I have to do anything.

 

[Silverhair]

And you have to remember that the next verse says that he didn't come up with that on his own. Then 5 verses later Peter really messes up and gets rebuked. That section of scripture shows that God has plans for individuals that will come about because he decides it will. It also shows that God chooses to work with people in real time, working with them in a way that seems to involve them and their wills. Plenty of scripture shows both. Look at Philippians chapter 3 and you see Paul coming to knowledge, then counting everything dung that he may win Christ, then he talks about being apprehended and then he's going to press toward the mark. It's not a thing where God better be happy with my decision yet it's not a thing where I'm chosen so bam, I'm regenerated so I'm OK and don't tell me I have to do anything.

Dave I think you and I think a lot alike. God seeks us and we seek Him and I think to many people get caught up in the fluff. Even after many many years of study I still have more questions than answers.

 

[AustinC]

I cannot speak for any Arminian but as I see in the bible God reaches out to us via the Holy Spirit, nature etc and with our God given free will man has the ability to accept or reject the invitation. If man does not have the ability to make a choice then why preach the gospel? The answer of "because God commands it" is silly if man has no choice in the matter of who is saved or not. The gospel is to be preached just because man does have a choice and God will hold them responsible for that choice.

God says "made alive" not just reach out. Give God the glory due His name.
Moreso he says, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ."
That's God speaking, not some man. That's not silly, Silverhair.