• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Arminians/non cals only respond here

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cypress

New Member
Sorry for the length of this, but it seems that we continue to rehash the same issues in each generation for some reason......the whole treatise from the 1890's can be found here http://www.gospeltruth.net/harris/har_cal_toc.htm

SECTION III

Are the Gospel Invitations Sincere?

I much prefer to assume, and not to discuss this question. The very thought shocks our moral sentiments. If long entertained it not only impairs the authority of the Scriptures, but attacks and gradually undermines the very citadel of personal religion--faith in the essential righteousness of God. But there is no alternative. The issue is forced upon the student of theology by the position of the Calvinists. As it has been shown (see Chapters III. and IV. of Part I) one of the fundamental doctrines of Calvinism is the absolute omnipotence of God. In this respect all consistent Calvinists must follow in the footsteps of their great leader; as a recent writer has expressed it, "As we read the Institutes of Calvin, we see that the corner-stone of the whole structure is his doctrine of the Sovereignty of God." Hence, the logical consistency of their position that if God were so disposed he could save every soul in the world.

All modern Calvinists agree in declaring the universality of the gospel invitations. God can, but does not save all whom He invites. Consequently arises the difficulty concerning which Dr. Chalmers says "there must be a sad misunderstanding somewhere," while Dr. Dick declares that the Calvinist, who is determined to see "no difficulty here, has not, as he probably imagines, more understanding than other men, but less." "The many declarations in which God exhorts man to keep his commandments, appear to him ironical, as if a father were to say to his child, 'Come,' while he knows that he can not come!" Of those to whom God does not give efficacious grace, Calvin says, "He directs his voice to them, but it is that they may become more deaf; he kindles a light, but it is that they may be made blind; he publishes his doctrine, but it is that they may be more besotted; he applies a remedy, but it is that they may not be healed."

Rev. John Sladen informs his hearers, "All that God designed to save he saves; but he actually saves some only, therefore, he designed to save only some of fallen Adam's children, for, if we consider God as infinite in wisdom, and of almighty power, there can not be a more rational way of arguing than from his acts to his designs.' This is similar to Symimgton's argument, who says in behalf of a limited atonement, "The event is the best interpreter of the divine intention." Dr. Nehemiah Adams says, "Not one more, not one less will be saved than God purposes" "God never designed to save every individual; since, if he had, every individual would and must be saved; for his counsel shall stand and he will do all his pleasure."

It is now evident that if Calvinists have correctly interpreted the Scriptures, the universal invitations which constantly meet the eye of sinners, such as, "Ho, every one that thirsteth," "Come unto me all ye that labor;" "The spirit and the bride say, Come; And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst, Come, And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely," do not and can not mean what the plain, ordinary readers in all ages have understood by them.

With Justin Martyr, Ambrose and Chrysostom of the early Church, and with many thousands of modern Christians, I had ignorantly thought that the universal invitations to the gospel feast meant what they said--expressed the real sentiments and sincere desires of God. But such is not the ease--if Calvinism be correct--for while the everlasting Father does invite all through his revealed will, his secret will--his real desire is that only a certain number shall accept his overtures of mercy. Thus speaks Dr. Lyman Atwater, who says, "It results from the universality of God's decrees, as now set forth. that they who accept it, must also accept the distinction between the decretive and the preceptive will of God, i.e.., inasmuch as many things occur contrary to his commands, while yet he foreordains all things, it must be that in these cases he proposes one thing and commands another. This can not be evaded by any who admit the universality of his decrees or purposes." Commenting on Rom. ix. 19, Dr. E. D. Griffin says, "His decretive will in distinction from his preceptive--a distinction which the apostle here brings into view and does not deny, but in the context clearly affirms."

Concerning the secret will of God, Dr. Emmons declares that it "solely respects the taking place of those things which he determined from eternity should take place, without any regard to the nature of them, whether morally good or morally evil. It was his secret will that not only holiness and happiness, but that sin and misery also should take place among his intelligent creatures. It is his secret will that all the elect shall repent and believe, and that all the non-elect shall live and die in impenitence and unbelief: though he loves faith and repentance and hates impenitence and unbelief."

In the Bibliotheca Sacra of 1856 there is a Review of Toplady's Theology by Prof. Geo. N. Boardman, D.D. Wesley's great opponent says, "Although the will of God, considered in itself, is simply one and the same; yet in condescension to the present capacities of men, the Divine Will is very properly distinguished into secret and revealed. Thus it was his revealed will that Pharaoh should let the Israelites go: that Abraham should sacrifice his son; that Peter should not deny Christ; but as was proved by the event, it was his secret will that Pharaoh should not let Israel go; that Abraham should not sacrifice Isaac, and that Peter should deny his Lord." To this Professor Boardman adds, as an explanation, "It must not be inferred from this that God's will is ever contrary to itself. The secret will of God is in reality his will: while that which is revealed has reference to the various circumstances of men. The hidden will is peremptory and absolute.'' Here we have new light. It must be confessed the rays therefrom are cold, freezing cold, but it can not be denied that the truth as it is in Jesus has burst upon and overwhelmed us.

As the sincerity of Almighty Love was eluding us, as it was getting every moment less and less real, I had hoped--doubtless, with the reader, that our unerring interpreters of the Bible would leave untouched, the only remaining comfort of the non-elect, viz.: an eternal antagonism between the two Divine wills. But no; even this small hope vanishes as the truth is forced upon me that the universal invitations of the gospel are no more to be relied upon than are the dreams of a madman; for as these theologians tell us, they are in no sense the real expression of the Divine will. These invitations are made out of gracious condescension to our finite capacities: they convey no truth, they express no reality, for in all cases "the secret will of God, is in reality, his will."

The reasoning of this school of Calvinists when explaining the doctrine of a limited atonement, irresistibly leads to a flat denial of the Divine sincerity. To them it may appear reasonable and satisfactory; but to other Calvinists it does not. Thus President R. L. Dabney, while claming "that there is a just distinction between God's decretive and preceptive will," says "but let the question be stated thus: Do all the solemn and tender entreaties of God to sinners express no more, as to the non-elect, than a purpose in God, uncompassionate and merely rectoral, to acquit himself of his legislative function towards them? To speak after the manner of men, have all these apparently touching appeals after all no heart in them? We can not but deem it an unfortunate logic which constrains a man to take this view of them. How much more simple and satisfactory to take them for just what they express? evidences of a true compassion, which yet is restrained, in the case of the unknown class, the non-elect, by consistent and holy reasons, from taking the form of a volition to regenerate." The average reader will agree with Dr. Dabney that there must be some heart in the gospel invitations; that the Divine compassion for lost souls which is constantly breaking forth in such expressions as "Cast away from you all your transgressions whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" must be rooted in everlasting sincerity. But let us see if Dr. Dabney has, in any essential degree, a better solution. After declaring that "the plain Christian mind will ever stumble on this fatal question, How can a truthful and consistent God have two opposite wills about the same object?" he adds. "It is far more Scriptural, and, as we trust, has been shown, far more logical to say, that an immutable and sovereign God never had but one will (one purpose, or volition), as to this lost man; as a faithful God would never publish any other volition than the one he entertained, but that it was entirely consistent for God to compassionate where he never purposed nor promised to save, because this sincere compassion was restrained within the limits God announced by his own wisdom." Certainly this is a remarkable solution. Dr. Dabney believes in, and contends for, God's real compassion for the non-elect; yet he gravely tells us that this yearning of the Father for the return of his lost children does not lead to salvation because "He never purposed nor promised to save." If this signifies anything, it must mean that the universal invitations of the gospel were never intended by God as promises to the non-elect.
 

Cypress

New Member
Continued.......
True, the same language between man and man would always be understood as a promise; is so understood by every ordinary reader of the Bible throughout Christendom: but nevertheless it is all a mistake. God has never purposed nor promised to save the nonelect; he has simply announced to the world that he really pities, sincerely compassionates them. Beyond all controversy Dr. Dabney and Dr. Toplady are in the same dilemma. They simply differ in the choice of the horn on which they shall be impaled. Dr. Toplady says God's universal invitations are not real, because they are in no essential sense the expression of his will. Dr. Dabney replies, "No, you are mistaken, Dr. Toplady. Your logic is at fault; these invitations of God are sincere; they express his real compassion, you err in supposing them to be promises; that, they are not and were never intended to be.

One moment's serious thought will explode these sophisms. The universal invitations of the gospel are sincere, not only because they express God's real compassion, but because they are his promises to be fulfilled the instant the conditions are truly met. There is not one declaration within the pages of the Bible, offering peace and salvation to the troubled soul that is not a promise to any and every one who reads. As Dr. Chalmers has said: "In no place in the Bible is pardon addressed to any man on the footing that he is one of the elect; but in all places of the Bible pardon is addressed to every man on the footling that he is one of the species. On the former footing, there would be no warrant to any for the faith of the gospel, for no man knows at the commencement of his Christianity that he is one of the elect. On the latter footing, there is a distinct warrant to all, if they so choose, for the faith of the gospels for every man knows that he is one of the human race. It is most assuredly in his latter capacity and not in his former, that the calls and offers and entreaties of the gospel are brought to his door." He who was "the Way, the Truth, and the Life," who was a perfect scourge to all hypocrites, and who declared that every idle word shall be brought to judgment, meant exactly, without any qualifications or evasions whatsoever, what his words seem to mean when he said "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls." (Matt. xi. 28, 29). Anything short of this is unmitigated hypocrisy.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have an issue with "allow a sinner to repent" when He specifically commands it. Where God guides He provides, and has done so already with His desire that man repents. He doesn't command all men to repent while "allowing" the few to actually do it.

All men are commanded to repent and believe. They are responsible to do it.
That they do not ,or cannot because of a love of sin is on them.
This is where God in mercy intervenes on behalf of those elected and enables them ,making them willing.
I believe the scripture indicates that the reasons natural men do not do this are many....they are set to resist and rebel against the truth, they have the world, the flesh and the devil, keeping them from viewing God's truth in a proper way.
By it self[the world,flesh, and devil, ] are to much for the natural man ...in and of himself to overcome.

Where God guides He provides, and has done so already with His desire that man repents

This is an area where we do not agree...I think your statement here is only true of those whom God has set His love upon. {those given to the Son, not everyone}

You also believe it is those God sets His love upon...[you believe everyone,or most???} Is that correct?

that view leaves me asking who makes the difference in who believes and who does not....that is one area where we differ.

My question would be....in light of the verses that indicate man cannot receive the word, 1cor 2:14....romans 8:7.....neither indeed can be..and the world , flesh, and devil.....how do you explain any person being an overcomer?

The closer your answer comes to God enabling...the closer we are to agreeing.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This, seems to me, to be the inescapable conclusion, when the doctrine of election is seen through the eyes of Calvinistic theology. However, I will not "deny" the Sovereign God of the universe the right (implicitly or explicitly) the ability to gather "the elect" in any manner He so deems properly. I simply do not agree with this doctrine of election as I see it espoused and explained by the proponents of the reformed position. I do not see the totality of the revelation of scripture teaching the doctrine in this way.

Quantum,

Remember that election is a great MERCY.....undeserved by any of us who were guilty before a Holy God. That he determines to have mercy on a great multitude...is only His Loving kindness ,and Loyal love.

From my point of view.....i have a harder time believing that God would somehow love all men without exception.....but more or less only provide a bridge that goes part way across...leaving it to us to figure out the rest of the way??? that might not be the best way to say it.....but the idea is if the scripture teaches God saves....or that He saves who He loves....and I am told that He loves all men withouit distiction.....yet all men are not saved somehow...but are left in unbelief....I do not see that as the teaching here.

I see all men in sin and death and unbelief, then God saves a multitude of them....in Mercy.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Quantum,

Remember that election is a great MERCY.....undeserved by any of us who were guilty before a Holy God. That he determines to have mercy on a great multitude...is only His Loving kindness ,and Loyal love.

From my point of view.....i have a harder time believing that God would somehow love all men without exception.....but more or less only provide a bridge that goes part way across...leaving it to us to figure out the rest of the way??? that might not be the best way to say it.....but the idea is if the scripture teaches God saves....or that He saves who He loves....and I am told that He loves all men withouit distiction.....yet all men are not saved somehow...but are left in unbelief....I do not see that as the teaching here.

I see all men in sin and death and unbelief, then God saves a multitude of them....in Mercy.

Everything in God's dealing with "us" is a great "hesed". Not sure what I might have said to suggest otherwise.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Continued.......
True, the same language between man and man would always be understood as a promise; is so understood by every ordinary reader of the Bible throughout Christendom: but nevertheless it is all a mistake. God has never purposed nor promised to save the nonelect; he has simply announced to the world that he really pities, sincerely compassionates them. Beyond all controversy Dr. Dabney and Dr. Toplady are in the same dilemma. They simply differ in the choice of the horn on which they shall be impaled. Dr. Toplady says God's universal invitations are not real, because they are in no essential sense the expression of his will. Dr. Dabney replies, "No, you are mistaken, Dr. Toplady. Your logic is at fault; these invitations of God are sincere; they express his real compassion, you err in supposing them to be promises; that, they are not and were never intended to be.

One moment's serious thought will explode these sophisms. The universal invitations of the gospel are sincere, not only because they express God's real compassion, but because they are his promises to be fulfilled the instant the conditions are truly met. There is not one declaration within the pages of the Bible, offering peace and salvation to the troubled soul that is not a promise to any and every one who reads. As Dr. Chalmers has said: "In no place in the Bible is pardon addressed to any man on the footing that he is one of the elect; but in all places of the Bible pardon is addressed to every man on the footling that he is one of the species. On the former footing, there would be no warrant to any for the faith of the gospel, for no man knows at the commencement of his Christianity that he is one of the elect. On the latter footing, there is a distinct warrant to all, if they so choose, for the faith of the gospels for every man knows that he is one of the human race. It is most assuredly in his latter capacity and not in his former, that the calls and offers and entreaties of the gospel are brought to his door." He who was "the Way, the Truth, and the Life," who was a perfect scourge to all hypocrites, and who declared that every idle word shall be brought to judgment, meant exactly, without any qualifications or evasions whatsoever, what his words seem to mean when he said "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls." (Matt. xi. 28, 29). Anything short of this is unmitigated hypocrisy.

Wow, lots to digest and ponder upon. Thanks for sharing.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Icon,
In your plan of salvation, this is what I disagree with most:

Repentance may have its place, and may be important. But put this way it is not Biblical.

"God needs you to repent of all known sin."
That is an impossibility for any man to do.
You can't even remember every sin you have committed, much less repent of them all!

DHK,
I understand what you are saying and can agree in part. We cannot remember all sin commited, and we are probably not even aware of some sins that we did in ignorance[even sins of ignorance were taken into account in the OT sacrificial system]
When i refer to repentance in general...it is that 180 degree turning from sin,and idols , to God
8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

ido not think we have to sort of itemize each and every sin as there are so many as you speak of...so I agree with that. What i mean when i speak of repenting of all known sin...is more the practice of sin.....a drunkard repents of the practice of drinking, a thief, stealing, etc.
A sinner who repents can offer in prayer all of His previous sins...as a group.acknowleging all sin at once...maybe thinking over their past life and asking for forgiveness......Jesus when he forgave sinners would often say...go your way and sin no more. that is the sense I am speaking of....the reigning power of sin being broken....and replaced with a godly desire;
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

like this

If one doesn't know the Biblical definition of the word "repentance" then perhaps he shouldn't use it. It is impossible to repent from all your sins. That is what he said--"repent of all your sins."
do you understand what i mean now DHK...I think I know exactly what biblical repentance is....a change of heart and mind attitude and behaviour
4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to realize the severity of those crimes, and seek God's mercy and forgiveness. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation.

Likewise #6--Is someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, calling on Him for the forgiveness of their sins...I explain to him that God would have them join...
This wording is fine DHK...any wording that points the sinner to the saviour works for me,lol
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Winman,

Believe what message?... that Jesus died for the elect? WHO ARE THE ELECT???

You freely admit you have no idea who the elect are, so how did you figure out that you are elect? By believeing a message that says nothing?

Your message does not give a person anything to believe in!

Election is true. The message preached is Jesus saves sinners .God saves sinners in Christ.

Paul speaks of election more than anyone, but he says this;
15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

That is the message! Where do you see it differently? There is no need to!

God loves sinners In Christ.....not apart from Him.

How can they respond in belief? You cannot honestly tell ANYONE that Jesus died for them, how are they supposed to believe Jesus died for them? That is absolutely impossible.
winman...you only have to tell them what the bible tells them...Jesus died to save sinners[all of us qualify]
those who believe will be saved.... a calvinist likes Jn 3;16, Jn 5;24-25 just fine...we use it , we believe it!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Winman,
But that is not what Calvinists do, they preach the gospel like Arminians, they give the impression that anyone can believe, when in reality they do not believe this.

We preach to all men because we do not know who is elect POINT #1

Winman...every person I come in contact with I few as someone I have come to meet by Divine appointment....for salvation,or damnnation...
In other words I attempt to direct them to saving interest In Christ....

While I believe in the doctrines of grace 100%...I believe Jesus very clearly spoke and commanded us to bring the gospel everywhere we can to all men.

Whom he has elected is His buisness.....do you see the difference here,and your statement.

I am driving this week to memphis, okc, and dallas/fort worth, and waxa hachie......every person I meet in the truckstop, drivers, tourists, waitress, etc
I pray that the lord will allow me the opportunity to present His truth faithfully to them, they will hear the gospel, they will hear about sermonaudio, etc.....It is exciting to pray, then go...I feel like each trip is a short term missions trip.
some people I get to see several times,,some only once.
God answers prayer very often just this way. You know what I believe more or less by seeing the posts.....but i ask God for wisdom to present a word in season to any and all he wants me to interact with.....it is exciting Winman, and yet there is a soberness to it.
Last week I spoke with a seven day adventist in oregon, a Jw in iowa,,,and dozens of random persons...gave out sermonaudio website about 20-30 times

Winman...we are all called to faithful service {the doctrines of grace give me confidence that God will prosper His word everywhere it is faithfully proclaimed.
 

Winman

Active Member
Winman,

Election is true. The message preached is Jesus saves sinners .God saves sinners in Christ.

Paul speaks of election more than anyone, but he says this;

That is the message! Where do you see it differently? There is no need to!

God loves sinners In Christ.....not apart from Him.

winman...you only have to tell them what the bible tells them...Jesus died to save sinners[all of us qualify]
those who believe will be saved.... a calvinist likes Jn 3;16, Jn 5;24-25 just fine...we use it , we believe it!

For you to tell people that Jesus died for sinners is a half-truth, as it implies Jesus died for ALL sinners. But you do not really believe that, you believe Jesus only died for SOME sinners. If that's what you truly believe, that is what you should tell people.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
In my experience. If someone does not believe God loved the world that He sent His Son and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth the way we do.

That if you don't see world and all the way they do you are not mature enough.

You are not going to convince them the way we see scripture who do believe the world and all is just that.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Winman,
For you to tell people that Jesus died for sinners is a half-truth, as it implies Jesus died for ALL sinners. But you do not really believe that, you believe Jesus only died for SOME sinners. If that's what you truly believe, that is what you should tell people.
__________________

It is not a half truth it is the full gospel.At any point in time all men on earth could have been chosen by God....we do not know..we preach to all.

If you look in the OP. you will see that if the conversation goes that way, I have no difficulty explaining God's elective purposes as certain to come to pass.
I fully believe God's Covenant redemption will save all it was intended to save...yes...I do believe that.
I also believe that everyone believing will be saved. You can believe both truths,because they are one and the same.

Winman.....it is the same people who are going to be saved...how I see it, or how you see it......it is the same list of persons....not one will be different.
Give God all the praise and glory!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Psalm 109,
In my experience. If someone does not believe God loved the world that He sent His Son and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth the way we do.

I would ask you this series of questions;
and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth the way we do.

You say God wants all men to be saved....and yet we know all men are not saved.......
1] Does God save men, or do they save themself?

2]Does God want to save them...but cannot?

3] Did Jesus actually save anyone at the cross when he said ..it is finished?

4] Does anything need to be added to the work of the cross?

5] if your statement is biblically accurate...how does God want those to be saved who never heard about Jesus?
6] What happens to them?

7] Do you see any verse in scripture that suggests this happens?

8] Can you think of another meaning that is possible for that verse you quote?

9]We agree that Jesus died on the cross to pay for sins of believers.....Has God done all he can toward salvation, or does he do more?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Skan,
So, can I take that as an "I don't know?" If you don't know this then why couldn't you affirm the possibility of contra-causal free will (sometimes call libertarian freewill) and simply appeal to mystery as to its inner workings? That way you could affirm the CLEAR biblical teaching regarding God's holiness and separateness from sin in every regard.

Is it not possible that God created beings with the ability of first-cause choice, in that they can originate thoughts, desires and reason within themselves to make final determinations, in much the same way God does? Couldn't that be what separates us from the animals as being His image bearers? Must we reduce man's moral choices to animal instinct all so you can appeal to mystery anyway when it comes to the origin of evil choice?

No...clear portions of scripture indicate that this is not a possibility.
it is rather a philisophical idea that has no basis in reality.
Iniquity was found in Lucifer...is what is says...
I do not go beyond what scripture says.i do not think that is wise.
If God wanted to tell us the secret things, they would no longer be secret things , but revealed truth.Deut 29;29
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
In my experience. If someone does not believe God loved the world that He sent His Son and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth the way we do.

That if you don't see world and all the way they do you are not mature enough.

You are not going to convince them the way we see scripture who do believe the world and all is just that.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
For you to tell people that Jesus died for sinners is a half-truth, as it implies Jesus died for ALL sinners. But you do not really believe that, you believe Jesus only died for SOME sinners. If that's what you truly believe, that is what you should tell people.

You don't share meat with the unsaved. Milk is for those who are unable to handle meat, at a time when they should be. Lots of church people know lots of verses and passages, but are still on milk, as they misapply and misunderstand and misinterpret them.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You don't share meat with the unsaved. Milk is for those who are unable to handle meat, at a time when they should be. Lots of church people know lots of verses and passages, but are still on milk, as they misapply and misunderstand and misinterpret them.
Your first sentence said that one doesn't share meat with the unsaved. Then you described the condition of those who are on milk. Please clarify that the people on milk are not the unsaved.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top