Arminians/non cals only respond here

[quantumfaith]

I have an issue with "allow a sinner to repent" when He specifically commands it. Where God guides He provides, and has done so already with His desire that man repents. He doesn't command all men to repent while "allowing" the few to actually do it.

This, seems to me, to be the inescapable conclusion, when the doctrine of election is seen through the eyes of Calvinistic theology. However, I will not "deny" the Sovereign God of the universe the right (implicitly or explicitly) the ability to gather "the elect" in any manner He so deems properly. I simply do not agree with this doctrine of election as I see it espoused and explained by the proponents of the reformed position. I do not see the totality of the revelation of scripture teaching the doctrine in this way.

 

[DHK]

Icon,
In your plan of salvation, this is what I disagree with most:

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

Repentance may have its place, and may be important. But put this way it is not Biblical.

"God needs you to repent of all known sin."
That is an impossibility for any man to do.
You can't even remember every sin you have committed, much less repent of them all!

 

[preacher4truth]

Impossible. If you are a true 5 Point Calvinist who believes Limited Atonement, then you cannot honestly tell ANYBODY that Jesus died for them. You can't, because you don't know that it is true.

Fact is, if you believe in Limited Atonement, you cannot possibly know Jesus died for YOU.

The gospel is more than simply believeing Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead. You must believe Jesus died for YOUR sins.

I do not see how anybody can truly believe on Jesus unless they know for a FACT that Jesus died for THEIR SINS personally. If I did not know for a fact that Jesus died for ME, I would be in constant fear and doubt.

But thank God, the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus died for ALL MEN without exception, so I know the atonement is not limited and covers me.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're still incorrect. And you seem angry and caustic again. It's sad that you don't truly know what you're talking about, and most calvinists are very evangelistic in their efforts, and Paul was motivated to preach the Gospel, even suffering for it, because he understood he did it for the elect, only. 2 Timothy 2:9-10.

Here's what I've stated about preaching in another thread (you can call me a calvinist)

...We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Icon,
In your plan of salvation, this is what I disagree with most:

Repentance may have its place, and may be important. But put this way it is not Biblical.

"God needs you to repent of all known sin."
That is an impossibility for any man to do.
You can't even remember every sin you have committed, much less repent of them all!

Repentance doesn't mean knowing every known sin, nor does it mean turning from every known sin never to sin again.

That's where your misunderstanding lies: not having a proper definition or knowing Icons definition and intentions.

 

[DHK]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're still incorrect. And you seem angry and caustic again. It's sad that you don't truly know what you're talking about, and most calvinists are very evangelistic in their efforts, and Paul was motivated to preach the Gospel, even suffering for it, because he understood he did it for the elect, only. 2 Timothy 2:9-10.

:wavey:

That's a poor debate tactic. There was nothing angry or caustic in his post.

 

[DHK]

Repentance doesn't mean knowing every known sin, nor does it mean turning from every known sin never to sin again.

That's where your misunderstanding lies: not having a proper definition or knowing Icons definition and intentions.

It doesn't have anything to do with "Icon's definition."

If one doesn't know the Biblical definition of the word "repentance" then perhaps he shouldn't use it. It is impossible to repent from all your sins. That is what he said--"repent of all your sins."

 

[preacher4truth]

That's a poor debate tactic. There was nothing angry or caustic in his post.

Um, "It's a joke" (my beliefs) "impossible" "ridiculous."


That's too bad you didn't see it, because I certainly did. :wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

It doesn't have anything to do with "Icon's definition."

If one doesn't know the Biblical definition of the word "repentance" then perhaps he shouldn't use it. It is impossible to repent from all your sins. That is what he said--"repent of all your sins."

I'm saying I don't think you know the biblical definition, as you've described it repenting of every known sin, saying it is impossible. When you repented, what sin did you not repent of?

What does repent mean?

Thus, I say you don't understand what it means, nor Icons intent.

 

[Winman]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're still incorrect. And you seem angry and caustic again. It's sad that you don't truly know what you're talking about, and most calvinists are very evangelistic in their efforts, and Paul was motivated to preach the Gospel, even suffering for it, because he understood he did it for the elect, only. 2 Timothy 2:9-10.

:wavey:

So what? What are you preaching?... that Jesus died for SOME people? You can't even know if Jesus died for YOU!

If you told people the whole truth, what you really believe, I know what would be the first question out of my mouth, I would ask how I can know Jesus died for me. Then I would ask how you found out Jesus died for YOU.

When you told me that you can't be certain that Jesus died for me (or you), I would walk away. How am I supposed to believe that? You do know that belief means CONFIDENCE don't you? How can I have confidence Jesus will save me if he may not have died for me and has no intention of saving me? You can't, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

You can come on here and act as bold as you wish, I know better. I can put myself in your shoes, and if I believed what you believe, I would have no confidence whatsoever, I would be in constant fear and doubt.

 

[DHK]

I'm saying I don't think you know the biblical definition, as you've described it repenting of every known sin, saying it is impossible. When you repented, what sin did you not repent of?

What does repent mean?

Thus, I say you don't understand what it means, nor Icons intent.

I did not repent of any sins.
Only believers need to repent of known sins in order to maintain fellowship or their walk with God (1John 1:9)

For the unbeliever repentance is always toward God not from sins.
Specifically repentance is a change of mind in respect to one's attitude to God. When I got saved my attitude toward God was changed. I once was a rebel against God. I repented. Christ became my Lord. I now am submissive to his will. That is what repentance is. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.

It is impossible to repent from all of your sins.
What were all your sins before you got saved?
Did you confess them all to the Lord, and then repent of each one of them?

 

[preacher4truth]

So what? What are you preaching?... that Jesus died for SOME people? You can't even know if Jesus died for YOU!

Here's what I said:

...We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

Do you have a problem with the above? That's how I do it. Don't like it? Too bad. I stand before God, and no one else.

If you told people the whole truth, what you really believe, I know what would be the first question out of my mouth, I would ask how I can know Jesus died for me. Then I would ask how you found out Jesus died for YOU.

I always tell people the truth. I love when you hypothesize and pretend you know all of my beliefs. :love2:

When you told me that you can't be certain that Jesus died for me (or you), I would walk away. How am I supposed to believe that? You do know that belief means CONFIDENCE don't you? How can I have confidence Jesus will save me if he may not have died for me and has no intention of saving me? You can't, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

I know Jesus died for me. My job isn't to go figure out whom He died for, but to preach to all people the Gospel as He commanded. Those who believe that message? They're His elect. And again, you're assuming you know all my beliefs. You don't.

You can come on here and act as bold as you wish, I know better. I can put myself in your shoes, and if I believed what you believe, I would have no confidence whatsoever, I would be in constant fear and doubt.

I'm not acting. Actually, I'm more bold in person. You'd be scared? I see what is besetting you now to not believe and accept the DoG's you see in the Scriptures: fear to do so. Why be in constant fear and doubt? *If God drew you to Him, and you believed and got saved, guess what? That's right!!!! You're an elect one! Safe and secure. *I use the word "if" as in "since." :wavey:

Now, Joe Schmogul out there cursing God, no belief, hates the church, doesn't get saved. Well, he's not elect.

Now he should be scared, and I say that with concern, not with happiness.

- Peace

 

[Winman]

Here's what I said:

...We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

Do you have a problem with the above? That's how I do it. Don't like it? Too bad. I stand before God, and no one else.




I always tell people the truth. I love when you hypothesize and pretend you know all of my beliefs. :love2:



I know Jesus died for me. My job isn't to go figure out whom He died for, but to preach to all people the Gospel as He commanded. Those who believe that message? They're His elect. And again, you're assuming you know all my beliefs. You don't.



I'm not acting. Actually, I'm more bold in person. You'd be scared? I see what is besetting you now to not believe and accept the DoG's you see in the Scriptures: fear to do so. Why be in constant fear and doubt? *If God drew you to Him, and you believed and got saved, guess what? That's right!!!! You're an elect one! Safe and secure. *I use the word "if" as in "since." :wavey:

Now, Joe Schmogul out there cursing God, no belief, hates the church, doesn't get saved. Well, he's not elect.

Now he should be scared, and I say that with concern, not with happiness.

- Peace

Believe what message?... that Jesus died for the elect? WHO ARE THE ELECT???

You freely admit you have no idea who the elect are, so how did you figure out that you are elect? By believeing a message that says nothing?

Your message does not give a person anything to believe in!

 

[preacher4truth]

I did not repent of any sins.
Only believers need to repent of known sins in order to maintain fellowship or their walk with God (1John 1:9)

I repented of my sins, which is in itself "repentance toward God" in that I had sinned against Him.

For the unbeliever repentance is always toward God not from sins. Specifically repentance is a change of mind in respect to one's attitude to God. When I got saved my attitude toward God was changed. I once was a rebel against God. I repented. Christ became my Lord. I now am submissive to his will. That is what repentance is. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.

Yep. My attitude toward God was that I had a bad one, and a sinful one, and offended Him. Changing my mind about Him was a change of mind about my ways and my sins. So it was in fact repentance of sins, which were toward Him. All together in one package.

It is impossible to repent from all of your sins.
What were all your sins before you got saved?
Did you confess them all to the Lord, and then repent of each one of them?

It's impossibe to "change my mind" about all my sins? No, not at all. It was actually easy, because He granted me the gift of repentance Himself. He cahnged my heart in order to do so. And it was conviction about my sins, being lost, and being in darkness, that He used to draw me to Him as Savior.

When I repented it was for the whole entire scope of being a sinner. Seeking forgiveness, I found it in Him. There wasn't a one by one listing of sin. That isn't necesarry and this is why I say you hold an improper understanding of repentance.

We don't have all night for me to list all my sins here, and besides, they're nailed to the Cross and are forever gone.

 

[preacher4truth]

Believe what message?... that Jesus died for the elect? WHO ARE THE ELECT???

I preach the Gospel, His elect respond in belief.

You freely admit you have no idea who the elect are, so how did you figure out that you are elect? By believeing a message that says nothing?

Even Paul didn't know who the elect are, yet he preached the Gospel,. and the elect responded in belief. 2 Timothy 2:9-10

Secondly, my message is the Gospel. It says it all as far as all His elect need to know to be saved.

Your message does not give a person anything to believe in!

My message is the Gospel of Christ. The elect respond to it in belief, and they find much in it to believe in.

 

[Skandelon]

The thread's author specifically requested that non-Calvinists are to respond here. Can we honor that request please?

Let's do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

 

[Winman]

I preach the Gospel, His elect respond in belief.



Even Paul didn't know who the elect are, yet he preached the Gospel,. and the elect responded in belief. 2 Timothy 2:9-10

Secondly, my message is the Gospel. It says it all as far as all His elect need to know to be saved.



My message is the Gospel of Christ. The elect respond to it in belief, and they find much in it to believe in.

How can they respond in belief? You cannot honestly tell ANYONE that Jesus died for them, how are they supposed to believe Jesus died for them? That is absolutely impossible.

Your message is meaningless, it cannot possibly encourage faith. If you cannot look someone in the eye and tell them for a FACT that Jesus loves THEM and died for THEIR sins, you have given them absolutely nothing to have confidence and depend upon.

You can't even be certain you are elect, the best you can do is hope you are elect. Then you must go about and prove it to yourself by works.

It must be terrible.

 

[preacher4truth]

How can they respond in belief? You cannot honestly tell ANYONE that Jesus died for them, how are they supposed to believe Jesus died for them? That is absolutely impossible.

Your message is meaningless, it cannot possibly encourage faith. If you cannot look someone in the eye and tell them for a FACT that Jesus loves THEM and died for THEIR sins, you have given them absolutely nothing to have confidence and depend upon.

You can't even be certain you are elect, the best you can do is hope you are elect. Then you must go about and prove it to yourself by works.

It must be terrible.

Not true. No need for this at all. I've responded kindly and told you I preach the Gospel, thus my message isn't meaningless.


And I see this thread isn't for me according to the OP.

- Peace

 

[DHK]

I repented of my sins, which is in itself "repentance toward God" in that I had sinned against Him.

Don't act like a schizophrenic. It is one or the other. Either you repented of your sins or you repented toward God. Which one? Both are not true.

It's impossibe to "change my mind" about all my sins? No, not at all. It was actually easy, because He granted me the gift of repentance Himself. He cahnged my heart in order to do so. And it was conviction about my sins, being lost, and being in darkness, that He used to draw me to Him as Savior.

That is not what I said, is it?

When I repented it was for the whole entire scope of being a sinner. Seeking forgiveness, I found it in Him. There wasn't a one by one listing of sin. That isn't necesarry and this is why I say you hold an improper understanding of repentance.

We don't have all night for me to list all my sins here, and besides, they're nailed to the Cross and are forever gone.

If you don't have to list all your sins, then why say you do. It is an unbiblical theology--repent of all your sins. That is what was said. You say it was not meant. Say what you mean then. So many preachers are telling their people: "repent of all your sins"--something they cannot do. Don't say it if you can't do it.

 

[DHK]

The OP:

here is the question and response;
Quote: Discuss any or all of it......

Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Here is how I would word #4

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to realize the severity of those crimes, and seek God's mercy and forgiveness. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation.

Likewise #6--Is someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, calling on Him for the forgiveness of their sins...I explain to him that God would have them join...

 

[Winman]

Not true. No need for this at all. I've responded kindly and told you I preach the Gospel, thus my message isn't meaningless.


And I see this thread isn't for me according to the OP.

- Peace

I am simply demonstrating the logical conclusion of your doctrine. If Jesus only died for some people, then you cannot tell anyone that Jesus died for them. How is that supposed to encourage faith?

But that is not what Calvinists do, they preach the gospel like Arminians, they give the impression that anyone can believe, when in reality they do not believe this.