Arminians/non cals only respond here

[preacher4truth]

Your first sentence said that one doesn't share meat with the unsaved. Then you described the condition of those who are on milk. Please clarify that the people on milk are not the unsaved.

Well, this should be a given to all of us, but yes, persons on milk are babes IN CHRIST not unsaved.

I've made mention of this since some continue to argue we preach about election, DoG and other "meat" doctrines. A rebuttal is that even those saved many years are still on milk, knowing many verses, but missing intent and more.

Thanks

 

[Cypress]

Winman,


It is not a half truth it is the full gospel.At any point in time all men on earth could have been chosen by God....we do not know..we preach to all.

If you look in the OP. you will see that if the conversation goes that way, I have no difficulty explaining God's elective purposes as certain to come to pass.
I fully believe God's Covenant redemption will save all it was intended to save...yes...I do believe that.
I also believe that everyone believing will be saved. You can believe both truths,because they are one and the same.

Winman.....it is the same people who are going to be saved...how I see it, or how you see it......it is the same list of persons....not one will be different.
Give God all the praise and glory!

Iconoclast, the part above that I bolded may be in contention by Winman. not sure if he thinks the number is set or not.....I personally feel that the number that may be saved includes all of mankind and those that actually will is not fixed.
Thanks for the testimony on your witness during your travels....it is a welcome challenge to me all as well as glorifying to our Lord. I too drive for a living and am able to influence many people either way every day. Please pray for my boldness as I will for yours.
raying::love2:

 

[Winman]

Winman,


It is not a half truth it is the full gospel.At any point in time all men on earth could have been chosen by God....we do not know..we preach to all.

If you look in the OP. you will see that if the conversation goes that way, I have no difficulty explaining God's elective purposes as certain to come to pass.
I fully believe God's Covenant redemption will save all it was intended to save...yes...I do believe that.
I also believe that everyone believing will be saved. You can believe both truths,because they are one and the same.

Winman.....it is the same people who are going to be saved...how I see it, or how you see it......it is the same list of persons....not one will be different.
Give God all the praise and glory!

No, when you tell a person Jesus died for sinners, it is misleading, because using the word "sinners" implies "all sinners" and that is not what YOU believe. You should tell people that Jesus "might" have died for their sins. You should tell them Jesus died for "some" sinners, and that it "might be possible" they are one of the elect Jesus died for. Now you would be telling the whole truth as YOU believe it.

It is like those "free" lessons on computer advertised on TV, you pay $10 shipping for a CD that probably costs one dollar at most to ship. That fellow gives the impression the CD is free, when in reality it is not. It is a form of false advertising, though technically it is not.

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 109,


I would ask you this series of questions;


You say God wants all men to be saved....and yet we know all men are not saved.......
1] Does God save men, or do they save themself?

God saves men the punishment for our sin is death, God paid the penalty not us. Until they can pay their own debt which is not salvation but death and then they can say they have paid it eternal death where the worm never dies.

2]Does God want to save them...but cannot?

God will fulfill His promises that those who trust in Jesus shall be saved and to God trust is not work. He wants, but only His will will be fulfilled that those who trust in His Son will be saved. God gets what He wills those who trust in His Son shall be saved.

3] Did Jesus actually save anyone at the cross when he said ..it is finished?

The work is done at the cross, so what is next is to enter His rest.

Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5]

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[Gen. 2:2] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

4] Does anything need to be added to the work of the cross?

See above answer

5] if your statement is biblically accurate...how does God want those to be saved who never heard about Jesus?

We are to bring the message to them, God appointed us as their messenger, their blood is on our hands. This is what Jesus say's

John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

I am not the judge just the messenger

6] What happens to them?

See above answer

7] Do you see any verse in scripture that suggests this happens?

See the above above answer.

8] Can you think of another meaning that is possible for that verse you quote?

When men say's all or world it is limited when God say's world and all it is not. God said He loved the world that He sent His , so He has no favoritism all through the message can believe now it is time to trust and enter His rest. In Him is the only salvation praise Jesus.

9]We agree that Jesus died on the cross to pay for sins of believers.....Has God done all he can toward salvation, or does he do more?

He called us out to the world to fix the mess we made and gave an elect to accomplish this mission, so no one has an excuse not to spread the message to the world and the hope through Jesus and no one has an excuse not to come.

We possess the words of life for the dead and the Holy Spirit to be able to do what God sent us out to do.

 

[Benjamin]

I don’t know the soteriological view of the poster above but I would take no objection to the faithful message that Psalms109 delivers about the elect having hope in the promise and the power of the Gospel to give life today. I did not see even a hint of darkness or a desire from him to inject a doctrine of favoritism for the pre-selected few in that message.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, the part above that I bolded may be in contention by Winman. not sure if he thinks the number is set or not.....I personally feel that the number that may be saved includes all of mankind and those that actually will is not fixed.
Thanks for the testimony on your witness during your travels....it is a welcome challenge to me all as well as glorifying to our Lord. I too drive for a living and am able to influence many people either way every day. Please pray for my boldness as I will for yours.
raying::love2:

Cypress Good article....

.....I personally feel that the number that may be saved includes all of mankind and those that actually will is not fixed.

humanly speaking it could be all mankind as far as we know, so we preach to all......I am certain the number is fixed however.;
from the 1689;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

Cypress ...here is a link;
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

Do you drive an 18 wheeler?

 

[Cypress]

Iconoclast.....no time yet to use the link.....will try soon though.
I don't drive an 18 wheeler much any more....occasionally though. Local deliveries out of vans/stepvans is my normal m.o.

Determinism and simple foreknowledge will logically necessitate the number as fixed regardless of scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast.....no time yet to use the link.....will try soon though.
I don't drive an 18 wheeler much any more....occasionally though. Local deliveries out of vans/stepvans is my normal m.o.

Determinism and simple foreknowledge will logically necessitate the number as fixed regardless of scripture.

Well Yes...when Jesus said IT is finished He actually accomplished a full redemption for the covenant people of God ..once for all time.
Actual sins, of actual persons who were sanctified ...were actually paid for in full.

14for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

15and testify to us also doth the Holy Spirit, for after that He hath said before,

16`This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws on their hearts, and upon their minds I will write them,'

17and `their sins and their lawlessness I will remember no more;'

18and where forgiveness of these [is], there is no more offering for sin.

 

[psalms109:31]

I don’t know the soteriological view of the poster above but I would take no objection to the faithful message that Psalms109 delivers about the elect having hope in the promise and the power of the Gospel to give life today. I did not see even a hint of darkness or a desire from him to inject a doctrine of favoritism for the pre-selected few in that message.

John 20:
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[Or may continue to believe]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

This is what is important to me

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

I know some people might not like Spurgeon because he said that Calvinism is the Gospel maybe they use it to scare people away from him to me he is also saying this if Calvinism isn't preaching the Gospel it isn't Calvinism

Spurgeon has confirmed these things I have always believe that God convinced me of long ago.

Spurgeon never fled from the seeming incompatibility of the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man to repentance. When challenged to do so he replied, “I do not try to reconcile friends.” Spurgeon was even once reported as praying before his sermon, “Lord, call out your elect, and then elect some more.”George, p. 274

"I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression." Spurgeon

 

[Rippon]

I did not see even a hint of darkness or a desire from him to inject a doctrine of favoritism for the pre-selected few in that message.

As if some here are walking in darkness? The way you phrase things is telling. The Lord indeed chose who He wanted to before the foundation of the world because it was His good pleasure. When all the elect are added up (and none can calculate the number this side of Heaven) the number will be quite expansive. But I believe it will be the minority of humanity becuse the Scripture says broad is the way that leads to destruction --few are on the narrow path. The elect are the remnant of mankind.

"The preselected few". Hmm...will you allow the Almighty to save a few? Does He have that right? He would be just to condemn all of humanity to everlasting damnation and you would not have one iota of argument to make about Him doing so.

"A doctrine of favoritism". Another hmm.. Well,no one is saved because they deserved to be. Nobody has any merits of their own to attract the Lord. Those few who inherit salvation are rebels against the Lord. They are hostile to Him. There is nothing desirable about them in the least. But you see,God gets to pick and chose anyone that He so desires and you can't complain about it with any justification.

The Lord mercies whom He decides to mercy and hardens those whom He wants to harden. Check out Romans 9:18 sometime.

 

[psalms109:31]

E. His Views on Hyper-Calvinism

I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points.

There are some who do not think it to be their duty to go into the highways and hedges and bid all, as many as they find, to come to supper. Oh, no! They are too orthodox to obey the Master’s will; they desire to understand first who are appointed to come to the supper, and then they will invite them; that is to say, they will do what there is no necessity to do (i.e., present the gospel to those who are already saved). In contrast with this, the apostles’ delivered the gospel, the same gospel to the dead as to the living, the same gospel to the non-elect as to the elect. The point of distinction is not in the gospel, but in its being applied by the Holy Ghost, or left to be rejected of man.

In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must be regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints.

Spurgeon and the Battle for Gospel Preaching

 

[Rippon]

E. His Views on Hyper-Calvinism

Is it your belief that some here hold to hyper-Calvinistic views that Spurgeon denounced in your quote from the Prince of Preachers?

 

[psalms109:31]

Is it your belief that some here hold to hyper-Calvinistic views that Spurgeon denounced in your quote from the Prince of Preachers?

No I do not believe anyone is holding to the extreme of hyper, because they believe the Gospel needs to be spread, but do you think this is going on?

"In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must be regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints." Spurgeon and the Battle for Gospel Preaching


That they first must believe they are predestined or chosen in the womb first and then tell them the Gospel of Jesus or tell them the Gospel of Jesus and when they believe know that they are the elect?

 

[Rippon]

No I do not believe anyone is holding to the extreme of hyper, because they believe the Gospel needs to be spread, but do you think this is going on?

"In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must be regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints." Spurgeon and the Battle for Gospel Preaching


That they first must believe they are predestined or chosen in the womb first and then tell them the Gospel of Jesus or tell them the Gospel of Jesus and when they believe know that they are the elect?

No Calvinist (that means hyper-Calvinists don't apply)that I know personally or in Church History has held that. And I don't think any Calvinist on the BB holds to what Spurgeon denounced.

So my question is why did you bring it up as if it had some relevance?

 

[psalms109:31]

No Calvinist (that means hyper-Calvinists don't apply)that I know personally or in Church History has held that. And I don't think any Calvinist on the BB holds to what Spurgeon denounced.

So my question is why did you bring it up as if it had some relevance?

Praise God that you believe that then, but it is there to help Ben to see the difference between hyper and Calvinist. I don't want anyone to hate on each of us in Christ but to know one another as we know Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

I do believe through listening to Spurgeon that He is including more through His elect by Him praying this

Spurgeon was even once reported as praying before his sermon, “Lord, call out your elect, and then elect some more.”George, p. 274

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”

I do praise God that He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth that He sent us out as His messengers not alone, but with the Holy Spirit and the words of Life.

 

[Rippon]

I do believe through listening to Spurgeon that He is including more through His elect by Him praying this

Spurgeon was even once reported as praying before his sermon, “Lord, call out your elect, and then elect some more.”George, p. 274

We have gone over this before. Only those the Lord chose before the creation of the world are the elect --no one is added to that number.

Spurgeon was being jocular --he had a burden for souls. But the Lord doesn't chose others that were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the world was made.

 

[Benjamin]

No Calvinist (that means hyper-Calvinists don't apply)that I know personally or in Church History has held that.

You, as well as other Hard Determinist here, continually announce a doctrine/gospel of predestination that excludes the possibility of belief for anyone other than the pre-selected few. That is EXACTLY what I called Iconoclast on! Yet, you will act as if Spurgeon was denouncing something that doesn’t/didn’t exist.

And I don't think any Calvinist on the BB holds to what Spurgeon denounced.

People here blatantly and deceitfully (I'd suppose I could also allow for ignorantly) deny any logical conclusions to their doctrines while they continually preach a message of darkness. The same will undertake to implement such confines against the definition of hyper-Calvinism that by their justifications it can not so much as exist then assume crying “foul” is a reasonable defense.

So my question is why did you bring it up as if it had some relevance?

No relevance, give me a break! Even some Calvinist here offered examples of a more ethical way to present the Gospel. The relevance is as plain as the nose on your and Pink’s face.

 

[Rippon]

You, as well as other Hard Determinist here, continually announce a doctrine/gospel of predestination that excludes the possibility of belief for anyone other than the pre-selected few.

Only the elect will be saved. Only those whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life are bound for glory. If you object do you want to insist that the elect and the reprobate and the elect are desined for heaven?!

you will act as if Spurgeon was denouncing something that doesn’t/didn’t exist.

I said that the quote by Spurgeon furnished by Ps. did not apply to any calvinist (not hyper-Calvinist) in Church History nor did it apply to anyone on the BB.

I didn't say it didn't exist. it exists among the Gospel Standard folks and some other small sects. But again,I'm saying no Calvinist holds to what C.H.S. denounced. Understand?

People here blatantly and deceitfully (I'd suppose I could also allow for ignorantly) deny any logical conclusions to their doctrines while they continually preach a message of darkness.

You really need to restrain yourself Ben. Telling anyone here that they preach/teach a "message of darkness" is over the line and you know it. As a matter of fact I will report it to the mods.

No relevance, give me a break! Even some Calvinist here offered examples of a more ethical way to present the Gospel.

How does Spurgeon's quote denouncing hyper-Calvinism,produced by Ps. have anything to do with the beliefs of any Calvinist in Church History and the BB?

 

[Benjamin]

Telling anyone here that they preach/teach a "message of darkness" is over the line and you know it. As a matter of fact I will report it to the mods.

Originally Posted By Benjamin:
The same will undertake to implement such confines against the definition of hyper-Calvinism that by their justifications it can not so much as exist then assume crying “foul” is a reasonable defense.

Anyone preaching a message of darkness here is over the line on a Christian board Rip! Go ahead and deny it while crying "foul" as your defense. No surprise here that you would look for such suppport to continue in "your ways" while avoiding the logical conclusions of your hyper-derterminist doctrines. You want to talk about what would be telling! I'm so threatened by your going to whine that it is unfair to call a duck a duck (or hyper-Determinist). :sleeping_2: