Arminians/non cals only respond here

[Iconoclast]

"I believe in the free agency of man, that man acts as he wills, especially in moral operations--choosing to commit evil is "unbiased by anything that comes from God, biased only by his own depravity of heart and the perverseness of his habits."

Spurgeon

Can you understand it, for I cannot, how a man is a free agent, a responsible agent, so that his sins is his own sin and lies with him and never with God? I cannot comprehend it, without hesitation I believe it, and rejoice it to be so.

Spurgeon

:applause::applause::applause: Keep coming to the light:laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

:thumbsup:

:thumbs::thumbs:.............

Appreciate it, but I know....you know.....that I am not in agreement.

 

[quantumfaith]

:applause::applause::applause: Keep coming to the light:laugh:

My purpose (point) here is that even the "legends" of the reformed, humbly admit that they cannot "understand" this antimony.

 

[preacher4truth]

No man is free, John 8:30-36. I used to believe man had freewill when asked this, I would answer yes. But then, I had never studied this out. When contemplating my answer and the subject later on I came to a true conclusion. I no longer believe mans will free.

Our culture, and especially within our alleged "free" country this belief (freewill) is facilitated.

There are other erroneous beliefs expedited via culture, systems, ideologies. This though is Satans way to confuse, blind, misinform so we shouldn't be surprised that he uses this (culture/societal influence) to help some on their way to hell, nor that he uses this to penetrate an onslaught against truth through and from inside the church.

Consider the omnis of God under attack, and while doing so, how man, and his abilities are exalted within our culture. Think how, as is typical in universities, colleges, schools, young men and women are told they can do anything they want and become anything they want to become. Sorry, but that is just not true at all. All are equipped differently. But the problem here is that we are so success oriented it drives our culture toward this end and error. Sucecess then becomes mans glory, and not Gods Glory.

We have an exaltation of man, and an degradation of Holy God going on, and hell filled with folks who gained self-esteem.

- Peace

 

[quantumfaith]

No man is free, John 8:30-36. I used to believe man had freewill when asked this, I would answer yes. But then, I had never studied this out when contemplating my answer and the subject. I no longer believe mans will free.

Our culture, and especially within our alleged "free" country this belief (freewill) is facilitated.

There are other erroneous beliefs expedited via culture, systems, ideologies. This though is Satans way to confuse, blind, misinform so we shouldn't be surprised that he uses this to help some on their way to hell, nor that he uses this to penetrate an onslaught against truth through and from inside the church.

Consider the omnis of God under attack, and while doing so, how man, and his abilities are exalted within our culture. Think how, as is typical in universities, colleges, schools, young men and women are told they can do anything they want and become anything they want to become. Sorry, but that is just not true at all. All are equipped differently. But the problem here is that we are so success oriented it drives our culture toward this end and error. Sucecess then becomes mans glory, and not Gods Glory.

We have an exaltation of man, and an degradation of Holy God going on, and hell filled with folks who gained self-esteem.

- Peace

I am going to say this humbly and respectfully. I would appreciate it if you would not level the charge that those of us who hold to some notion of free will "exalt man" and "degrade God". This is simply inaccurate and not true.

 

[Iconoclast]

My purpose (point) here is that even the "legends" of the reformed, humbly admit that they cannot "understand" this antimony.

Quantum,
That is exactly the point....we can only understand what is revealed....
we must understand from the revealed scripture say and let it inform our minds.
Not start with our own ideas and seek to make scripture say what we want it to.
No one claims to know everything...we just take comfort in the promises that God has for those He has set His saving love upon.

 

[Winman]

Keep coming to the light :laugh:

At the last second your light will be a locomotive.

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,
That is exactly the point....we can only understand what is revealed....
we must understand from the revealed scripture say and let it inform our minds.
Not start with our own ideas and seek to make scripture say what we want it to.
No one claims to know everything...we just take comfort in the promises that God has for those He has set His saving love upon.

I am in agreement Icon, but gifted and intelligent men read the same scriptures and yet arrive at differing conclusions, different sometimes divergent, but always at the very least tangential and often secantly.

Note the "mathisms".

 

[quantumfaith]

At the last second your light will be a locomotive.

Winman,

I have not been on a real train since the 70's visiting the Berlin Wall.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

I have not been on a real train since the 70's visiting the Berlin Wall.

Just a joke, I had a friend once who told me he had a dream and saw a bright light, he walked into the light and at the last second realized it was a locomotive! :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

Just a joke, I had a friend once who told me he had a dream and saw a bright light, he walked into the light and at the last second realized it was a locomotive! :laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

At the last second your light will be a locomotive.

Good one winman
:applause::applause::applause:

 

[preacher4truth]

I am going to say this humbly and respectfully. I would appreciate it if you would not level the charge that those of us who hold to some notion of free will "exalt man" and "degrade God". This is simply inaccurate and not true.

You need to perhaps re-read my post. I said society and culture do this. Freewill stems from this culture driven fallacy.

There will be no change in my position for the sake of any who feel the need to fall upon a sword over it.

 

[Iconoclast]

“No, I wouldn’t want to hear how he preach the Gospel to someone struggling with their faith AND he wouldn’t want to spew that pre-selected dogma in front of me in that kind of situation"! …Before he went ahead and did it (possibly in front of someone lurking on this board who is a seeker) while hiding behind his keyboard and later thinking himself clever to re-open two more treads on the subject without the context of the argument and looking for support from his “kinsmen” who would revel in proclaiming the same message. (being allowed on this board)

in that kind of situation[/B]"! …Before he went ahead and did it (possibly in front of someone lurking on this board who is a seeker.....

The truth will not harm a "seeker", as the Spirit would be drawing a true seeker. God's election is openly proclaimed in every NT book.
God has an eternal plan. That should not be an offence to any believer.

hiding behind his keyboard

hiding from what? what does this even mean?:laugh::laugh:

without the context of the argument

The thing is...you never presented a biblically based discussion...just your "thoughts"....and your "logic". I and others think your thoughts are unbiblical.

looking for support from his “kinsmen” who would revel in proclaiming the same message. (being allowed on this board)

Benjamin.....my kinsman would offer faithful correction,and question any differences they have with me and what I post. They have done so several times.
I notice when they do...they do not suggest any of the following;

1] I would lie to my children

2] I hold to dark teaching

3] I am lying and working with satan

You only seem to have these special insights;

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
…without the context of the argument

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
The thing is...you never presented a biblically based discussion...just your "thoughts"....and your "logic". I and others think your thoughts are unbiblical.

Really???

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700943&postcount=1

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700945&postcount=3

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700946&postcount=4

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
1] I would lie to my children

Finally answering the question, eh? Okay… figures.

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
2] I hold to dark teaching

No argument from me on that one.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
3] I am lying and working with satan

If the shoe fits…

 

[Rippon]

Really???

No,not really. You are deceitful.

 

[Rippon]

In my posts (#79 and #82) I was as clear as can be. And yet you say that you don't have time to wade through it??

I am surprised that mods have allowed you to continually reference Calvinists as preaching a message of darkness. And,apparently, they have allowed you to say that preaching predestination is full of blasphemy. But I guess they have more important matters to attend to.

Ben,are you still unwilling to answer my questions? Don't be evasive and draw anyone else into it. Just be direct and leave your sophistry behind for a change.

 

[Rippon]

A few choice quotes from John Wesley's Free Grace screed.

He said predestination "represents the most holy God as worst than the devil,as both more false,more cruel,and more unjust."

"I abhor the doctrine of predestination."

And if any of you have wondered what the origin of something that has been laid at the feet of Calvinists for so long :

"...by his eternal decree fixed before they had done good or evil,causes children of a span long,but the parents also,to pass through the fire of hell."

Later John Wesley had another message called Predestination Calmly Considered. John Gill rebutted it in a comprehensive manner to it in 1752.

George Whitefield responded to the Free Grace message with : A Letter From George Whitefield To The Rev. Mr. John Wesley.

Whitefield told Wesley that the latter dishonored God by denying election.

George Whitefield also told Wesley that J.W. denied articles 9,10 and 17 of the Anglican Articles. Every Anglicasn minister made a solemn oath that he believed and would teach the same. J.W. went back on his pledge. But Billy Sunday and Charles Finney among other notables broke their vows when,as ministers of the Presbyterian Chuirch they swore that they would be in compliance with the Westminister Confession of Faith.

Ben,how convenient of you to ignore this post of mine. Have you actually read the entirety of swesley's message regarding Free Grace? Do you endorse the kind of doctrine he espoused? Are you comfortable in using his material as a biblically orthodox position?

 

[Benjamin]

No,not really. You are deceitful.

By that comment you are showing you are misinformed or can't follow the subject of an argument. (Of course, I already knew that.)

Let me spell it out for you:Iconoclast said about the context of the argument that, "The thing is...you never presented a biblically based discussion...just your "thoughts"....and your "logic"."

Check the links my friend:


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700943&postcount=1

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700945&postcount=3

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700946&postcount=4

 

[Benjamin]

Rip:

Response to post 79:
Anyone preaching a message of darkness here is over the line on a Christian board Rip! Go ahead and deny it while crying "foul" as your defense. No surprise here that you would look for such suppport to continue in "your ways" while avoiding the logical conclusions of your hyper-derterminist doctrines. You want to talk about what would be telling! I'm so threatened by your going to whine that it is unfair to call a duck a duck (or hyper-Determinist).

Response to post 82:
I don’t have time to wade through the semantic ambiguity of a dozen hyper-determinists on this board and try to pin them down on the logical conclusions to their preaching doctrines of predestination. Put down your Pink for a while and read about how preaching predestination becomes a doctrine full of blasphemy here:

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/128/

Response to post 87:
AS per the OP and me being in disagreement with someone (or Iconoclast) (post #4-5) who would be ashamed to tell someone they had real hope (because according to his dark doctrine he doesn’t know if they had been pre-elected or not) and further would let them have it (if they scoffed or mocked him) “that God has not planned to save everyone”….well…Rip, if I was witnessing and someone came up and started injecting that kind of hyper-Determinist dogma into the message of hope and light for all…grr…well…you can put it in the bank that that seeker would get a clear picture of how the Liar/the Devil and his helpers work to lie to him with the example I made out of that hyper-Determinist and his “message”!!! Hence: my forewarning to Iconoclast that “No, I wouldn’t want to hear how he preach the Gospel to someone struggling with their faith AND he wouldn’t want to spew that pre-selected dogma in front of me in that kind of situation"! …Before he went ahead and did it (possibly in front of someone lurking on this board who is a seeker) while hiding behind his keyboard and later thinking himself clever to re-open two more treads on the subject without the context of the argument and looking for support from his “kinsmen” who would revel in proclaiming the same message. (being allowed on this board)

Rip, you want to whine about the rules of this board and about me calling a duck a duck?! Take it up with Jesus: (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1John gives just one small taste of that it is a lie/a false doctrine to declare a fore-determined pre-selected/predestined few because it logically denies creaturely responsibly of ALL God’s creatures by denying his ABILITY to CHOOSE, the light given to ALL men; hyper-Determinism logically gives men an EXCUSE in that they may not have been specially pre-selected…hence, hyper-Determinism denies the truth of God’s justice (Deut 32:4) …and now for the rest of the story in 1Jn 1 concerning responsibility, justice, God’s light in the world and those who would preach otherwise:

(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

(1Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Response to post 117 (Rippon reposting his whining):
Refer to post 79.

Response to post 118:
Wesley and Whitefield often debated passionately over the issue of predestination. You can try to condemn Wesley (BTW, I remember your tread where you set out to calling Wesley a heretic: shame on you!) or his relationship with him but he later preached over Whitefield’s funeral. Yeah, I’d take Wesley’s doctrines over Pink’s any day, but I’m not going down this road with you.