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jbh28

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God says to be holy, but no one is able to be holy. Man is still responsible for his willing actions regardless if he i able or not to do good.

while avoiding the logical conclusions of your hyper-derterminist doctrines
As I mentioned, taking something to a "logical" conclusion is almost always a straw man. You take something to your logic and from you perspective. That creates every time a straw man argument. Just like Wesley's argument was.

You, as well as other Hard Determinist here, continually announce a doctrine/gospel of predestination that excludes the possibility of belief for anyone other than the pre-selected few.
God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance? Everyone that doesn't believe does so because he chooses not to believe, not because anyone forced him not to believe. Because God chose to save some doesn't change that the rest choose not to believe and do so on their own will.

while they continually preach a message of darkness.
uncalled for and shame on you for saying such. You shouldn't treat your brothers in Christ in such a way.
 

Iconoclast

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If the shoe fits…

This is a new game evidently...ok...let me try it then:type:



Is that what we do...take someones words and repost them in a different form? I guess if you cannot answer anyone ,then you can resort to this.
 
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Benjamin

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If the shoe fits…

This is a new game evidently...ok...let me try it then:type:



Is that what we do...take someones words and repost them in a different form? I guess if you cannot answer anyone ,then you can resort to this.

I’m glad you took that made up quote out and won’t repost it.

Thing is Iconoclast you misrepresented me saying that I said you lie to your children, but I asked you this:

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?
You misrepresented me saying that I said you hold to dark teaching but my argument was directed to your doctrine and I was backing up these words:

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
You misrepresented me saying that I said you are lying and working with Satan but I more than once directed my argument toward your doctrine with the below in reference to “if the shoe fits”:


Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Anyone (highlighted for clarity) who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!

Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jesus, the Word, had a reply for those who attributed sin to Him: John 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He told us who would be saying such lies:

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God did not create, decree, ordain sin or evil, it came from the Devil, he was responsible:

Eze 28:14-18
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The Devil is the one who lied in the garden and told men they could be as gods, and the Devil and his helpers attempt to attribute sin and evil onto God today, they say the Word is not Truth. They say we can not seek God.
Amo 5:14
(14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.

The Devil brought sin onto the world and Jesus, the Word was manifested for this purpose and those who believe in the Goodness of God are the ones who have the truth.

1Jn 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:

1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

…And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:

Isa 5:20-21
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

There was a big difference from the games you went to play with that fake quote that you resorted to and removed is that I never blatantly changed your words; I only used some sarcasm about your misrepresenting what I had said.
 

Benjamin

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Benjamin

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As I mentioned, taking something to a "logical" conclusion is almost always a straw man. You take something to your logic and from you perspective. That creates every time a straw man argument. Just like Wesley's argument was.

A logical conclusion is just that, it is a philosophical science of drawing out the truth which removes strawmen. Take a class in basic logic/critical thinking, you might as well say the truth can not be known as to make that claim.

God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance?
All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.



Everyone that doesn't believe does so because he chooses not to believe, not because anyone forced him not to believe. Because God chose to save some doesn't change that the rest choose not to believe and do so on their own will.
That is not Hard Determinism by definition because you "attempt" to claim free will/volition of the creature. Although, you are trying to have it both ways on predestination:

Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.
 

Rippon

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Rip:

Response to post 79:
Anyone preaching a message of darkness ...blah,blah,blah

A non-response from you --again.

Response to post 82:
I don’t have time to wade through ...:sleep:

Yet another non-response. You just can't answer simply worded questions.


Take it up with Jesus: (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Therefore your brothers of a Calvinistic persuation on the BB are walking in darkness and preaching/teaching a message of darkness is what you are saying. You are disgraceful.

1John gives just one small taste of that it is a lie/a false doctrine to declare a fore-determined ...

The passage in 1 john has nothing to do with soteriology Ben.



Response to post 118:
Wesley and Whitefield often debated passionately over the issue of predestination. You can try to condemn Wesley (BTW, I remember your tread [sic]where you set out to calling Wesley a heretic: shame on you!)

Wesley wasn't far behind Finney in that respect. And it's not just a matter that they debated over the doctrine of predestination --Wesley said it was a horrible doctrine!

Yeah, I’d take Wesley’s doctrines over Pink’s any day, but I’m not going down this road with you.

I don't know why you are singling out A.W.P. -- But since you did --the latter's far more biblical. Going down the list of John Wesley's errors and conduct I don't understand why any Christian would want to follow in his footsteps.
 

Rippon

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Ben, have you actually read the entirety of Wesley's message regarding Free Grace? Do you endorse the kind of doctrine he espoused? Are you comfortable in using his material as a biblically orthodox position?

Please answer in a straightforward manner.
 

Rippon

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All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.

You said the above in response to what jbh28 said : "God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance?"

Ben,your answer has absolutely nothing to do with with what jbh28 said. You have a disconnect.



That is not Hard Determinism by definition because you "attempt" to claim free will/volition of the creature. Although, you are trying to have it both ways on predestination:

The above is another head-scratcher of a response from you to what jbh28 said:"Everyone that doesn't believe does so because he chooses not to believe,not because anyone forced him not to believe. Because God chose to save some doesn't change [the fact -Rip] that the rest choose not to believe and do so on their own will."

You say that is not hard-determinism. You say that he was trying to have it both ways on predestination. Ben,all Calvinists on the BB would be in agreement with what jbh28 said above. So where does that place you regarding your oft-repeated charges? ...On sinking sand.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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You said the above in response to what jbh28 said : "God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance?"

Ben,your answer has absolutely nothing to do with with what jbh28 said. You have a disconnect.

Guess Ben thinks God should operate the way he thinks He should operate. God according to Men....hmmmmm. Disconnect?!?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
God has an eternal plan. That should not be an offence to any believer.

The thing is...you never presented a biblically based discussion...just your "thoughts"....and your "logic". I and others think your thoughts are unbiblical.

You only seem to have these special insights;):rolleyes:;


Amen you are correct.

The attitude coming from his thoughts and logic are rather dark in nature, and yes unbiblical.

Who is this to say preaching predestination is blasphemous? Paul preached it. The Holy Spirit wrote it, and he says this kind of thing? That right there is blasphemous in and of itself.

The thing that gets me is he is allotted such freedom to say these things many times and again on the BB with no snips. Kind of interesting that is slides right on by. Perpetually.

:wavey:
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The elect predestined, I have no problem with it.
Revelation 7

The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”

The promise to Abraham, a people who believed God and is credited righteousness. That God has placed not just inclined their heart to believe, but has placed before them life and death through His elect ones and chose Jesus and lived.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truthand made us the messenger of.

Praise Jesus.
 
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Rippon

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You misrepresented me saying that I said you hold to dark teaching but my argument was directed to your doctrine and I was backing up these words:

Ben,doctrine=teaching. You charged Iconoclast (and all Calvinists) of preaching/teaching a dark message. There was no misrepresentation on Icono's part,nor on mine. If one really is preaching/teaching a "dark message",then one must hold to the very same dark teaching --that's a simple enough conclusion for any rational person to make.

Of course it is reprehensible for you to keep saying that same ole' stuff when we are in accordance with God's Word.
 

Benjamin

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Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Take it up with Jesus: (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Originally Posted by Rippon:
Therefore your brothers of a Calvinistic persuation on the BB are walking in darkness and preaching/teaching a message of darkness is what you are saying.

You are disgraceful.
If the Hyper-Determinist shoe fits…

Originally Posted by Rippon:

“Wesley was a blasphemer,a liar,and worse.His doctrines (for the most part) were despicable.The only "revivalist" who could make him look a little better in comparison would be Charles Finney.”

“Wesley was heretical and blasphemous.He's not the type of professing believer with which one should associate.”

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=52417&page=2


You are disgraceful.
Trying to avoid personal attacks, but you are a hypocrite.


Originally Posted by Rippon:
And it's not just a matter that they debated over the doctrine of predestination --Wesley said it was a horrible doctrine!
“It”, the way a Hyper-Determinist preaches “it” is a horrible doctrine. That is the point of this whole wonderful tread. “It” shouldn’t be allowed to be preached on this Christian forum by a dozen or so Hyper-Determinist who would go to such blasphemous extremes.



Originally Posted by Benjamin:
All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.
Originally Posted by Rippon:
You said the above in response to what jbh28 said : "God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance?"

Ben,your answer has absolutely nothing to do with with what jbh28 said. You have a disconnect.


Only if one doesn’t believe God’s righteous judgment of His creatures is in truth, like a Hyper-Determinists that would preach the blasphemous doctrine of predestination that tells some people that they might have no hope because they might have not been pre-selected! Talk about a disconnect, you don’t seem to be able to put two simple thoughts together and see a clear relevance. Do I have to spell everything out for you?
 
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Benjamin

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Originally Posted by Iconoclast
God has an eternal plan. That should not be an offence to any believer.

The thing is...you never presented a biblically based discussion...just your "thoughts"....and your "logic". I and others think your thoughts are unbiblical.

Amen you are correct.

The attitude coming from his thoughts and logic are rather dark in nature, and yes unbiblical.

Amazing how you guys rationalize as if you are speaking the truth while the evidence against you is right in your face!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700943&postcount=1

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700945&postcount=3

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700946&postcount=4
 

jbh28

Active Member
A logical conclusion is just that, it is a philosophical science of drawing out the truth which removes strawmen. Take a class in basic logic/critical thinking, you might as well say the truth can not be known as to make that claim.
I understand logic/critical thinking, but thanks all the same. My point, which you didn't address, takes it to a logical concussion from your point of view. So in that, a straw man develops.


All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.




That is not Hard Determinism by definition because you "attempt" to claim free will/volition of the creature. Although, you are trying to have it both ways on predestination:[/quote]There is no attempt. That's what we believe.
Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.
You are free to choose anything you want. Your limitation is with your nature/your desires.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member

All that did was take me to 3 links where you'd given your logic, and had cut and pasted many verses to prove your logic while misunderstanding the passages.
 

Winman

Active Member
You are free to choose anything you want. Your limitation is with your nature/your desires.

I disagree. Suppose a fellow stuck a gun in my face and demanded my wallet and threatened to shoot me if I didn't. I would give him my wallet to preserve my life, but that is not my greatest desire whatsoever. My greatest desire is to keep my money, and that this criminal be arrested. In fact, I have no desire whatsoever to give this criminal my wallet, but I am forced to against my will by threat of force. I would give up my wallet RELUCTANTLY.

The word "reluctant" would not even exist if your doctrine is true. Reluctant means to perform something "unwillingly".

So, yet another fallacious argument from Calvinism that is not really true.
 

Iconoclast

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:thumbs:Benjamin,
I’m glad you took that made up quote out and won’t repost it.

As long as you saw it,and how ridiculous your last post was....it had the desired effect. Most of us Look to discuss scriptural teaching that actually has something to do with the post. You keep posting from 1jn about no darkness,but you do not really clarify your idea.... because you fail to understand what we are discussing....you have to add your ideas and try not to understand how a presentation of the full gospel is only gospel to those who believe.....it is a promise of judgement to all who remain in rebellion.
I did not see the apostles shrink back from declaring the whole truth,as you evidently do.


Thing is Iconoclast you misrepresented me saying that I said you lie to your children, but I asked you this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them

1]The idea of even asking a believer if they lie to their children is offensive.

2]in this case that you suggest I would have to lie in telling them that Jesus loves them.....almost indicates that you might understand what is actually at issue.

3]I do not tell anyone outside of Christ that Jesus loves them in particular.
I stay consistent with the biblical teaching that the saving love of God is only found in Christ.
Anyone who remains in the realm of sin and death will perish apart from God's love. I was able to tell my children that God loves sinners ...In Christ...to remain apart from Christ is to remain under the judgement of God. I let them know there are two kingdoms....we are all born sinners in the Kingdom of this world....only those who believe come to know of the love of God. Only those who believe are translated into the Kingdom of His Dear Son
.

or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?

You keep beating this drum...of YOUR bible truth, and" a pre-selected few"

Can you show any post that says the elect will be a pre-selected few



Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?


Can you show any reformed persons who post this...that the elect will be a pre-selected few?
You whine about a pre-selected few...and yet no one says that from the reformed side,
You complain about being mis-understood, or mis-represented...here is your chance to answer publically and interact on it ......


I do not think you can...because you are not on the biblical side of the issue.
All verses you post do nothing to answer the questions...so instead you are trying to play the pseudo-intellectual philosopher, or resort to sarcasm and your new game:type: re-post and bear false witness all at the same time:(


We are willing to help.....but you must admit to the problem you are having, repent of your false and childish behaviour, and consider the verses you are resisting along the way. Until you do there can be no progress made.
:thumbs:
It will help you in many ways to lose this bitter spirit you are carrying around with you, from post to post....many are trying to help you....there is a reason for that.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Who is this to say preaching predestination is blasphemous? Paul preached it. The Holy Spirit wrote it, and he says this kind of thing? That right there is blasphemous in and of itself.

I have no problem with predestination whatsoever, it is scriptural.

That said, I disagree completely with the Calvinist concept of predestination.

Very basically, Calvinism teaches that before the foundation of the world, God chose certain persons to salvation, and chose to pass by all others, leaving them in their sin to go to hell.

I disagree with this.

I believe God's predestination is based or founded upon his foreknowledge. I believe before the foundation of the world, he chose to save those he saw would believe, and chose to pass by those he saw would not believe.

We have a figure of this in scripture, concerning Gideon.

Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

The Lord wanted Gideon to go to battle against the Midianites, but he wanted only a few to go into the battle, lest the Israelites believe they delivered themselves through their own strength.

You MUST like that as a Calvinist. And it is true, only God can save a man.

But notice how God chose these few men, these "elect" you might call them. He told Gideon to take them down to the river to drink. Notice God said he would "try them". This shows God's choice is conditional, he is going to choose whom he chooses for a reason.

He tells Gideon to separate those who lap water like a dog from those who kneel down to drink. At this time there were ten thousand men (vs. 3). Those that lapped water like a dog were just three hundred men, and these are the men God chose to fight with Gideon.

Now, do you believe God knew who would lap like a dog, and who would kneel down and drink beforehand? Of course. And God knew it would be a small number that lapped like a dog, just three hundred men, so that when Gideon defeated the Midianites all the people would know that God delivered them and not they themselves.

So, this is exactly how I view predestination. God knew beforehand who would believe (those who lapped like a dog), and these were his "chosen" or "elect". Those whom he knew would not believe (those who kneeled to drink) he rejected. God's choice was conditional, he did not choose randomly or without a reason.

And we know that God does choose people for a reason, despite what Calvinism teaches (unconditional election). It is plainly stated WHO and WHY God chooses the elect.

1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Do you see how similar this is to the story of Gideon? God has chosen the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, those that are base and despised to confound the proud... just as he chose the few men who drank water like a lowly dog. And he chose only three hundred, to defeat the mighty with a small weak force.

He has chosen the dogs.
 
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