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Arminians/non cals only respond here

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011.

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  1. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    God says to be holy, but no one is able to be holy. Man is still responsible for his willing actions regardless if he i able or not to do good.

    As I mentioned, taking something to a "logical" conclusion is almost always a straw man. You take something to your logic and from you perspective. That creates every time a straw man argument. Just like Wesley's argument was.

    God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance? Everyone that doesn't believe does so because he chooses not to believe, not because anyone forced him not to believe. Because God chose to save some doesn't change that the rest choose not to believe and do so on their own will.

    uncalled for and shame on you for saying such. You shouldn't treat your brothers in Christ in such a way.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    If the shoe fits…

    This is a new game evidently...ok...let me try it then:type:



    Is that what we do...take someones words and repost them in a different form? I guess if you cannot answer anyone ,then you can resort to this.
     
    #122 Iconoclast, Aug 4, 2011
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  3. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I’m glad you took that made up quote out and won’t repost it.

    Thing is Iconoclast you misrepresented me saying that I said you lie to your children, but I asked you this:


    You misrepresented me saying that I said you hold to dark teaching but my argument was directed to your doctrine and I was backing up these words:


    You misrepresented me saying that I said you are lying and working with Satan but I more than once directed my argument toward your doctrine with the below in reference to “if the shoe fits”:




    There was a big difference from the games you went to play with that fake quote that you resorted to and removed is that I never blatantly changed your words; I only used some sarcasm about your misrepresenting what I had said.
     
  4. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    #124 Benjamin, Aug 4, 2011
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  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    A logical conclusion is just that, it is a philosophical science of drawing out the truth which removes strawmen. Take a class in basic logic/critical thinking, you might as well say the truth can not be known as to make that claim.

    All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.



    That is not Hard Determinism by definition because you "attempt" to claim free will/volition of the creature. Although, you are trying to have it both ways on predestination:

    Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    A non-response from you --again.

    Yet another non-response. You just can't answer simply worded questions.


    Therefore your brothers of a Calvinistic persuation on the BB are walking in darkness and preaching/teaching a message of darkness is what you are saying. You are disgraceful.

    The passage in 1 john has nothing to do with soteriology Ben.



    Wesley wasn't far behind Finney in that respect. And it's not just a matter that they debated over the doctrine of predestination --Wesley said it was a horrible doctrine!

    I don't know why you are singling out A.W.P. -- But since you did --the latter's far more biblical. Going down the list of John Wesley's errors and conduct I don't understand why any Christian would want to follow in his footsteps.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Please answer in a straightforward manner.
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You said the above in response to what jbh28 said : "God isn't obligated to save everyone. He isn't obligated to save anyone. Who are you to say that he has to give everyone a chance?"

    Ben,your answer has absolutely nothing to do with with what jbh28 said. You have a disconnect.



    The above is another head-scratcher of a response from you to what jbh28 said:"Everyone that doesn't believe does so because he chooses not to believe,not because anyone forced him not to believe. Because God chose to save some doesn't change [the fact -Rip] that the rest choose not to believe and do so on their own will."

    You say that is not hard-determinism. You say that he was trying to have it both ways on predestination. Ben,all Calvinists on the BB would be in agreement with what jbh28 said above. So where does that place you regarding your oft-repeated charges? ...On sinking sand.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Didnt OP say only Arminians & Non Cals to respond? :laugh::p
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Guess Ben thinks God should operate the way he thinks He should operate. God according to Men....hmmmmm. Disconnect?!?
     
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Amen you are correct.

    The attitude coming from his thoughts and logic are rather dark in nature, and yes unbiblical.

    Who is this to say preaching predestination is blasphemous? Paul preached it. The Holy Spirit wrote it, and he says this kind of thing? That right there is blasphemous in and of itself.

    The thing that gets me is he is allotted such freedom to say these things many times and again on the BB with no snips. Kind of interesting that is slides right on by. Perpetually.

    :wavey:
     
  12. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    The elect predestined, I have no problem with it.
    The promise to Abraham, a people who believed God and is credited righteousness. That God has placed not just inclined their heart to believe, but has placed before them life and death through His elect ones and chose Jesus and lived.

    God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truthand made us the messenger of.

    Praise Jesus.
     
    #132 psalms109:31, Aug 4, 2011
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  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Ben,doctrine=teaching. You charged Iconoclast (and all Calvinists) of preaching/teaching a dark message. There was no misrepresentation on Icono's part,nor on mine. If one really is preaching/teaching a "dark message",then one must hold to the very same dark teaching --that's a simple enough conclusion for any rational person to make.

    Of course it is reprehensible for you to keep saying that same ole' stuff when we are in accordance with God's Word.
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    If the Hyper-Determinist shoe fits…


    Trying to avoid personal attacks, but you are a hypocrite.


    “It”, the way a Hyper-Determinist preaches “it” is a horrible doctrine. That is the point of this whole wonderful tread. “It” shouldn’t be allowed to be preached on this Christian forum by a dozen or so Hyper-Determinist who would go to such blasphemous extremes.





    Only if one doesn’t believe God’s righteous judgment of His creatures is in truth, like a Hyper-Determinists that would preach the blasphemous doctrine of predestination that tells some people that they might have no hope because they might have not been pre-selected! Talk about a disconnect, you don’t seem to be able to put two simple thoughts together and see a clear relevance. Do I have to spell everything out for you?
     
    #134 Benjamin, Aug 4, 2011
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  15. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Amazing how you guys rationalize as if you are speaking the truth while the evidence against you is right in your face!

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700943&postcount=1

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700945&postcount=3

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1700946&postcount=4
     
  16. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I understand logic/critical thinking, but thanks all the same. My point, which you didn't address, takes it to a logical concussion from your point of view. So in that, a straw man develops.


    All God's ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) God is truth in that judgment for all His creatures.




    That is not Hard Determinism by definition because you "attempt" to claim free will/volition of the creature. Although, you are trying to have it both ways on predestination:[/quote]There is no attempt. That's what we believe.
    You are free to choose anything you want. Your limitation is with your nature/your desires.
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    All that did was take me to 3 links where you'd given your logic, and had cut and pasted many verses to prove your logic while misunderstanding the passages.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I disagree. Suppose a fellow stuck a gun in my face and demanded my wallet and threatened to shoot me if I didn't. I would give him my wallet to preserve my life, but that is not my greatest desire whatsoever. My greatest desire is to keep my money, and that this criminal be arrested. In fact, I have no desire whatsoever to give this criminal my wallet, but I am forced to against my will by threat of force. I would give up my wallet RELUCTANTLY.

    The word "reluctant" would not even exist if your doctrine is true. Reluctant means to perform something "unwillingly".

    So, yet another fallacious argument from Calvinism that is not really true.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs:Benjamin,


    I do not think you can...because you are not on the biblical side of the issue.
    All verses you post do nothing to answer the questions...so instead you are trying to play the pseudo-intellectual philosopher, or resort to sarcasm and your new game:type: re-post and bear false witness all at the same time:(


    We are willing to help.....but you must admit to the problem you are having, repent of your false and childish behaviour, and consider the verses you are resisting along the way. Until you do there can be no progress made.
    :thumbs:
    It will help you in many ways to lose this bitter spirit you are carrying around with you, from post to post....many are trying to help you....there is a reason for that.
     
    #139 Iconoclast, Aug 4, 2011
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  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I have no problem with predestination whatsoever, it is scriptural.

    That said, I disagree completely with the Calvinist concept of predestination.

    Very basically, Calvinism teaches that before the foundation of the world, God chose certain persons to salvation, and chose to pass by all others, leaving them in their sin to go to hell.

    I disagree with this.

    I believe God's predestination is based or founded upon his foreknowledge. I believe before the foundation of the world, he chose to save those he saw would believe, and chose to pass by those he saw would not believe.

    We have a figure of this in scripture, concerning Gideon.

    Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
    3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
    4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
    5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
    6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
    7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

    The Lord wanted Gideon to go to battle against the Midianites, but he wanted only a few to go into the battle, lest the Israelites believe they delivered themselves through their own strength.

    You MUST like that as a Calvinist. And it is true, only God can save a man.

    But notice how God chose these few men, these "elect" you might call them. He told Gideon to take them down to the river to drink. Notice God said he would "try them". This shows God's choice is conditional, he is going to choose whom he chooses for a reason.

    He tells Gideon to separate those who lap water like a dog from those who kneel down to drink. At this time there were ten thousand men (vs. 3). Those that lapped water like a dog were just three hundred men, and these are the men God chose to fight with Gideon.

    Now, do you believe God knew who would lap like a dog, and who would kneel down and drink beforehand? Of course. And God knew it would be a small number that lapped like a dog, just three hundred men, so that when Gideon defeated the Midianites all the people would know that God delivered them and not they themselves.

    So, this is exactly how I view predestination. God knew beforehand who would believe (those who lapped like a dog), and these were his "chosen" or "elect". Those whom he knew would not believe (those who kneeled to drink) he rejected. God's choice was conditional, he did not choose randomly or without a reason.

    And we know that God does choose people for a reason, despite what Calvinism teaches (unconditional election). It is plainly stated WHO and WHY God chooses the elect.

    1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    Do you see how similar this is to the story of Gideon? God has chosen the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, those that are base and despised to confound the proud... just as he chose the few men who drank water like a lowly dog. And he chose only three hundred, to defeat the mighty with a small weak force.

    He has chosen the dogs.
     
    #140 Winman, Aug 4, 2011
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