Arminians/non cals only respond here

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

I believe God's predestination is based or founded upon his foreknowledge. I believe before the foundation of the world, he chose to save those he saw would believe, and chose to pass by those he saw would not believe.

That is no choice......that is rubber staming something, or reacting to something...meaning God had no choice in who would be saved....and yet the bible does not teach this...just exactly the opposite.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have no problem with predestination whatsoever, it is scriptural.

That said, I disagree completely with the Calvinist concept of predestination.

Very basically, Calvinism teaches that before the foundation of the world, God chose certain persons to salvation, and chose to pass by all others, leaving them in their sin to go to hell.

I disagree with this.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Winman,


That is no choice......that is rubber staming something, or reacting to something...meaning God had no choice in who would be saved....and yet the bible does not teach this...just exactly the opposite.

Of course it is a choice. A choice can be conditional, why could it not?

God chose those men who lapped water like a dog, and rejected those who kneeled down to drink. Are you saying God cannot choose according to a condition he predetermined? Why not?

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman,


That is no choice......that is rubber staming something, or reacting to something...meaning God had no choice in who would be saved....and yet the bible does not teach this...just exactly the opposite.

He's wrong again. God chose Jacob over Esau before either were born, and before either had done good or evil. Why? Well, that Gods purpose according to election might stand. And it was not of him who willed nor worked, but of Him who called. So it is not because He saw we would believe.

A good thorough study of what foreknowledge actually is (not what winman assumes it is) might help clear this up. That, and a discontinuation of his proof-text/simple Bible methodology would also help.

 

[Winman]

He's wrong again. God chose Jacob over Esau before either were born, and before either had done good or evil. Why? Well, that Gods purpose according to election might stand. And it was not of him who willed nor worked, but of Him who called. So it is not because He saw we would believe.

A good thorough study of what foreknowledge actually is (not what winman assumes it is) might help clear this up. That, and a discontinuation of his proof-text/simple Bible methodology would also help.

Well if you read Mat 22:14 you would know Jesus said MANY are called but few are chosen. The reason God chose Jacob was because Jacob had faith and believed the promise given to his father Isaac. That is why he wanted the birthright. He also knew Esau would have no regard for his birthright and sell it for a bowl of soup.

Many men were called in Matthew 22, but only those who answered and came when called were chosen.

 

[jbh28]

There's not a passage in the Scripture that says that God choose people for salvation by looking ahead and seeing who would believe.

 

[jbh28]

I have no problem with predestination whatsoever, it is scriptural.

That said, I disagree completely with the Calvinist concept of predestination.

Very basically, Calvinism teaches that before the foundation of the world, God chose certain persons to salvation, and chose to pass by all others, leaving them in their sin to go to hell.

Thanks for representing the position correctly. I would ask this though. Don't you actually agree with this, but just say that those "certain persons" are those whom He foreknew would come to him?

 

[Winman]

Thanks for representing the position correctly. I would ask this though. Don't you actually agree with this, but just say that those "certain persons" are those whom He foreknew would come to him?

Yes, but unlike you I believe all men can believe and come if they choose to do so.

I believe the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men. Some men of their free will will come to the light, some men of their free will will reject it.

I do not believe men are so utterly depraved they cannot respond to God, and I do not think God powerless to speak to the spiritually dead, convicting, drawing, and persuading them to believe.

You see, if you say that the spiritually dead cannot respond to God, you are ALSO denying God's power to speak to the dead. God does not have to make a person alive to speak to them, he can speak to anyone. Satan is dead, but God had no difficulty speaking to him in Job.

You've never considered that, have you?

Can a person be so dead that God is not ABLE to speak to them?

That is what you are teaching, you are teaching God does not have the power to speak to the dead. But he does, and one day he will call them out of their graves, and they will respond.

 

[Rippon]

A few choice quotes from John Wesley's Free Grace screed.

He said predestination "represents the most holy God as worst than the devil,as both more false,more cruel,and more unjust."

"I abhor the doctrine of predestination."

And if any of you have wondered what the origin of something that has been laid at the feet of Calvinists for so long :

"...by his eternal decree fixed before they had done good or evil,causes children of a span long,but the parents also,to pass through the fire of hell."

Later John Wesley had another message called Predestination Calmly Considered. John Gill rebutted it in a comprehensive manner to it in 1752.

George Whitefield responded to the Free Grace message with : A Letter From George Whitefield To The Rev. Mr. John Wesley.

Whitefield told Wesley that the latter dishonored God by denying election.

George Whitefield also told Wesley that J.W. denied articles 9,10 and 17 of the Anglican Articles. Every Anglican minister made a solemn oath that he believed and would teach the same. J.W. went back on his pledge. But Billy Sunday and Charles Finney among other notables broke their vows when,as ministers of the Presbyterian Chuirch they swore that they would be in compliance with the Westminster Confession of Faith.

John Wesley's theology was anti-biblical.

 

[evangelist6589]

It's a joke, Calvinists must preach the gospel like an Armininian, putting all emphasis on BELIEVEING. They can't honestly tell a person that Jesus loves them, they can't honestly tell a person Jesus died for them. They are left ONLY with telling people to BELIEVE. Then AFTER the person trusts Christ they must explain what just happened to them. Ridiculous!

If the poor fellow who just trusted Christ dare says he believed on Jesus, he will be assaulted on all sides, told that he hated God, and the only reason he believed was because God regenerated him to be able. That must be pretty shocking to hear the first time, but after the new convert reads the stack of Reformed authors he is told to read, he is soon convinced that is exactly what happened to him, though he was completely unaware of it at the time.

"Jesus might love me, but I don't know, for John Piper says this is so"

Joke.

In a previous post by your own admissions you yourself stated that you were a liar, a thief, & a blasphemer. Why should we trust your words knowing what you did say recently.

 

[prophet]

There's not a passage in the Scripture that says that God choose people for salvation by looking ahead and seeing who would believe.

God doesn't "look ahead".
He is the beginning and the ending.
He sees all of time(which He created for us) at once:
2Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Notice it goes both ways.

A day is no different than 1,000 years.

 

[Winman]

In a previous post by your own admissions you yourself stated that you were a liar, a thief, & a blasphemer. Why should we trust your words knowing what you did say recently.

What? Are you sinless? Have you sinned? Then according to your own argument, why should we listen to you?

 

[Winman]

God doesn't "look ahead".
He is the beginning and the ending.
He sees all of time(which He created for us) at once:
2Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Notice it goes both ways.

A day is no different than 1,000 years.

It's a bogus argument, the scriptures do indeed show God looks ahead to see who believes and who will not.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures say Jesus "knew from the beginning" who would not believe and who would betray him. This is foreknowledge of faith.

It also shows that God's foreknowledge includes actions people will take, refuting the Calvinist doctrine that foreknowledge only includes some "intimate" knowledge with the elect only.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

More foreknowledge of faith and actions. Jesus knew that only Judas was a "devil", showing he knew the other 11 were sincere believers and would not betray him as Judas only chose to do.

The scriptures absolutely show foreknowledge of faith.

 

[evangelist6589]

What? Are you sinless? Have you sinned? Then according to your own argument, why should we listen to you?

I do everyday in thought, word, and deed. I strive to be a SLAVE of God. Are you a SLAVE of God?

 

[prophet]

It's a bogus argument, the scriptures do indeed show God looks ahead to see who believes and who will not.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures say Jesus "knew from the beginning" who would not believe and who would betray him. This is foreknowledge of faith.

It also shows that God's foreknowledge includes actions people will take, refuting the Calvinist doctrine that foreknowledge only includes some "intimate" knowledge with the elect only.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

More foreknowledge of faith and actions. Jesus knew that only Judas was a "devil", showing he knew the other 11 were sincere believers and would not betray him as Judas only chose to do.

The scriptures absolutely show foreknowledge of faith.

I did not intend to imply that God can't see the future.
Rather, that to Him it is not future.
He lives outside of time.

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

 

[Revmitchell]

I did not intend to imply that God can't see the future.
Rather, that to Him it is not future.
He lives outside of time.

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

That verse does not say that to God it is not future or that He lives outside of time.

 

[prophet]

That verse does not say that to God it is not future or that He lives outside of time.

Indeed it does. You just don't grasp English well enough to receive it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Indeed it does. You just don't grasp English well enough to receive it.

See folks this is an example not of debate or discussion but of personal attacks and childishness.

 

[prophet]

See folks this is an example not of debate or discussion but of personal attacks and childishness.

If you were capable of having this conversation, you would've acknowledged that the phrase "that inhabiteth eternity" , by definition alone, separates God from time.

You simply denied that the verse said anything at all that suggested that God exists outside of time, leading me to the logical conclusion.that English is not your strong suit.

Other options are:
You are agenda driven, and are reserving your own interpretation in hopes that I will reveal some weakness in mine. Then you can play an Ace , and call it a win for _____ ideology.

Or, maybe you are just a liar, who sows disinformation for his own twisted gratification.

Or, you are so obtuse, that you would answer any idea put forth with "no it isn't!".

The most gracious conclusion that I could draw from your response of : denial without counter , is that you simply don't understand the words in the verse.
If you do understand, then..." If ye were blind, ye should have no sin:but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. "

 

[Revmitchell]

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One

The God who the King of Kings and Lord of Lords

that inhabiteth eternity,

Who has no beginning and no end.

whose name is Holy;

Who is the standard for all that is right, true, and good

I dwell in the high and holy place,

The special holy place of God

with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,

with those who have been born again and been pardoned by His grace.

to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

God is waiting to give grace to those who are willing to repent. This is the context of this passage.