As a ‘Calvinist’, How did you come to believe?

[percho]

I do not know whether this is, of Calvin or not but do believe it is, of God.

Through the faith, of Christ a man is saved unto good works, which he will do through the fruit of the Spirit.

Monergism

 

[kyredneck]

Romans chapter 2 is showing the general state of men (all of us).

All you're doing now is parroting 'the herd's' lame explanation of passages they don't understand and that doesn't suit their creed.

C'mon Dave, dare to be a Berean, forget the manmade commentaries and ask yourself this:

Is this the general state of man?:

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; Ro 2

Does 'the natural man' have the law written upon their hearts? Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; Hebrews 10:16; 2 Corinthians 3:3

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Does 'the natural man' have a circumcised heart? Colossians 2:11

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

 

[AustinC]

All you're doing now is parroting 'the herd's' lame explanation of passages they don't understand and that doesn't suit their creed.

C'mon Dave, dare to be a Berean, forget the manmade commentaries and ask yourself this:

Is this the general state of man?:

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; Ro 2

Does 'the natural man' have the law written upon their hearts? Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; Hebrews 10:16; 2 Corinthians 3:3

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Does 'the natural man' have a circumcised heart? Colossians 2:11

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

Redneck, dare to be a Berean, look beyond the RCC, the Orthodox, and the Church of England. See that God justifies us by the faith he has given us, apart from our works.

Or, keep following your synergist RCC held position.

 

[DaveXR650]

Sorry for the side track of the thread. It's just that since the thread was about how we came to believe or how we are saved without our help or permission I thought an introduction of works as the basis of justification deserved an answer or the thread was derailed anyway. But it seems from peoples testimonies, coming from our personal point of view, it simply occurs to us that we have a need and we realize that we must depend on God for our justification. It seems like it's exactly the same as the way a non Calvinist would describe it. A Calvinist would have a different analysis of why they came to faith or why they believed but from our own personal point of view we do decide. There is a lot of overlap because many non Calvinists do not give themselves credit for coming to Christ as some Calvinists charge and many Calvinists do agree that they had to believe in order to be saved, even though the faith was it gift it is the individual person who does the believing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What you seem to forget is that Abraham had good works long before Genesis 15:6, just as Cornelius had good works long before hearing the gospel, and the same with several others PRIOR to coming to faith. You faith aloners have it all wrong in your belief that our faith is the source of our good works. Both our works and our faith are fruits of the spirit. It's regeneration BEFORE conversion. Remember?

Faith is proven by works and engenders works, but it also preceeds works..
Suppose that I were to tell you that Walmart were selling $10 bills for a nickel each tomorrow? What would be the evidence that you believe me? Just saying, "Yes, Martin, we absolutely believe that this will come to pass" is no evidence of true faith. The evidence would be you turning up at Walmart with a bag-full of nickels in the expectation of getting a pile of $10 bills. Unfortunately, in this case your faith would be sadly misplaced, but the principle still holds good. Works (the bringing of the nickels) comes from faith.

 

[37818]

The US nickel has an actual value close to its face value.
U.S. Nickel Melt Value Calculator
FYI, it is not legal to melt your nickels.
FYI, based on the price of gold today's dollar is worth in 1950's dollars $35/price of gold per its oz.

Reply here >> What your money is worth.

 

[Van]

We get it. @Van posts on a thread regarding how a person came to Reformed belief and he tells us how he doesn't believe the Bible teaches these 5 truths.

1) All humans are, at their core, corrupt and in need of a Savior.
2) God chose His children by His will not by human merit.
3) The spilled blood of Jesus only effectively saves those who God chose to believe.
4) God's elect cannot resist His will to save them so that they will not die in their sins.
5) The evidence of one's election is the full perseverance in faith until death or Jesus return.

Van says he rejects the above, which would therefore mean that Van believes:
1) Man is by nature good.
2) Man's works merit God saving individuals.
3) Jesus blood effectively paid for all sins (100% of all humans)
4) Humans are not elect and can resist God's will even to their death.
5) Perseverance is not any indication of salvation. Say the prayer and you are saved.

Since @Van is not Reformed in any way, shape, or form, he should not post here, but he does anyway.

AustineC should not post falsehoods about Van's beliefs.
All humans are, due to the Fall, at their core corrupt and in need of a Savior. To claim I do not believe this is a gratuitous insult and an unnecessary slander.

God chooses His children by His will and not by human merit. To claim I do not believe this is a gratuitous insult and an unnecessary slander.

Christ Jesus's sacrifice as the Lamb of God provides the means of salvation for all humanity, those to be saved and those to never be saved. Thus Christ died for all humanity, and not just a subset.

Christ Jesus's sacrifice as the Lamb of God provides salvation for every individual God chooses to transfer from the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body.

God elects for salvation those whose faith God credits as righteous faith, thus we are saved by grace through faith.

A saved individual's perseverance in his or her love and devotion to Christ provides assurance of their salvation.

The second five false assertions are gratuitous insults and unnecessary slander.

 

[Van]

I asked for a testimony and got:

I have asked for truth and got copy and paste screed.

 

[kyredneck]

produce just one itsy bitsy teeny tiny passage from scripture that states that 'justification is by faith ALONE'

I challenge you to produce just one 'final judgement' passage where 'faith' is even mentioned.

???

 

[DaveXR650]

. Look at Romans 3:26 and 27. Belief is clearly stated as what is needed as opposed to works - you cannot get around that.

You just don't listen. Do ya.

 

[AustinC]

AustineC should not post falsehoods about Van's beliefs.
All humans are, due to the Fall, at their core corrupt and in need of a Savior. To claim I do not believe this is a gratuitous insult and an unnecessary slander.

God chooses His children by His will and not by human merit. To claim I do not believe this is a gratuitous insult and an unnecessary slander.

Christ Jesus's sacrifice as the Lamb of God provides the means of salvation for all humanity, those to be saved and those to never be saved. Thus Christ died for all humanity, and not just a subset.

Christ Jesus's sacrifice as the Lamb of God provides salvation for every individual God chooses to transfer from the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body.

God elects for salvation those whose faith God credits as righteous faith, thus we are saved by grace through faith.

A saved individual's perseverance in his or her love and devotion to Christ provides assurance of their salvation.

The second five false assertions are gratuitous insults and unnecessary slander.

I note your salvation is by works, not grace,even though you imagine your teaching is grace when it is not.
I have bolded in red what you state and note it is graceless.

 

[Guido]

At one point I became a 5-point Calvinist, because, my sister having told me about Paul Washer, I listened to him and believed his preaching. Now I've rejected at least four points.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Guido. I'm curious about what your opinion is of Paul Washer's style of preaching. In my own case, his preaching had more to do with me leaning toward Calvinism than any theological reasoning. But I know he gets mixed reviews among Calvinists.

 

[Guido]

When I first started listening to him, I thought he was a powerful preacher. But the power of a preacher's style is no guarantee that he is preaching the truth, except perhaps if the preacher is Jesus, or unless the power truly comes from the Holy Spirit, though I don't know if He still does that.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans chapter 2 is showing the general state of men (all of us).

???

By the way Romans 3:28 says a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:5 says a man is justified by faith and not by works.

Was Paul going senile?:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

By the way Romans 3:28 says a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:5 says a man is justified by faith and not by works.

Still, no one has produced one itsy bitsy teeny tiny verse of scripture that states justification is by faith 'ALONE'. Why not? Because:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

 

[DaveXR650]

@kyredneck . Paul, like most early Christians probably didn't live long enough to get senile. But you're reading the same scriptures I am and you have to deal with both. My take is that in the context, Paul is saying in chapter 2 that to Jews, who tended to boast that they were given the law and were superior to everyone else. Paul is pointing out that it doesn't make any difference if you have the law and don't do it. By the time chapter 3 is over Paul has concluded that everyone is under sin and guilty before God. By the way, your questions about the difficulty of reconciling the ideas of a justification that is imputed to us and at the same time the fact that you must have good works and pursue a holy life is a legitimate question. How can these things be in effect at the same time? Even John Owen concluded that these things ultimately have to be accepted on faith.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck . Paul, like most early Christians probably didn't live long enough to get senile.

The question was facetious. Of course, Paul was in his right mind, and he was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating that "the doers of the law shall be justified". Matthew 7:12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8

He was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating that "to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life"

He was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating "glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good".
.

My take is that in the context, Paul is saying in chapter 2 that to Jews, who tended to boast that they were given the law and were superior to everyone else.

The letter was written to the saints at Rome which included Jews and non-Jews.

Paul is pointing out that it doesn't make any difference if you have the law and don't do it. By the time chapter 3 is over Paul has concluded that everyone is under sin and guilty before God.

The “he is a Jew who is one inwardly” motif that Paul has constructed in chapter 2 leads into the question of Ro 3:1 and concludes in Ro 9:

If , because God is no respecter of persons, Jew and non-Jew alike are to be judged by their works with or without the law; – vv 5-13

And if non-Jews that don’t have the law can do by nature the things of the law because the law has been written in their hearts (synonymous with the circumcision of heart in v 29); vv 14-15

And if Jews that have the law and glory in it have through their transgression of it caused the name of God to be blasphemed among the non-Jews; vv 17-24

And if the Jews’ circumcision becomes uncircumcision if they transgress the law; v 25

And if non-Jews fulfill the law their uncircumcision becomes circumcision and they will judge the Jews; vv 26-27

And if Jews outwardly, circumcised in the flesh by the letter are not the real Jews; v 28

And if real Jews are those inwardly circumcised in heart in the spirit, not the letter; v 29

Then:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3

Paul begins his answer here:

2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3

And comes back to it here:

3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren`s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9

But:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

Reiterating the “he is a Jew who is one inwardly” motif of chapter 2.

 

[kyredneck]

By the time chapter 3 is over Paul has concluded that everyone is under sin and guilty before God.

You just don't get it do you? You don't 'get' the 'inward' parts of Romans 2 - the circumcised heart with the law written upon it. These are not the unregenerate natural state described in Romans 3.

The circumcised heart with the law written upon it is supernatural. John 1:13

 

[Guido]

You just don't get it do you? You don't 'get' the 'inward' parts of Romans 2 - the circumcised heart with the law written upon it. These are not the unregenerate natural state described in Romans 3.

The circumcised heart with the law written upon it is supernatural. John 1:13

Gentiles are not Jews

 

[Guido]

The question was facetious. Of course, Paul was in his right mind, and he was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating that "the doers of the law shall be justified". Matthew 7:12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8

He was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating that "to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life"

He was dead serious (not a theoretical premise) when stating "glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good".
.


The letter was written to the saints at Rome which included Jews and non-Jews.



The “he is a Jew who is one inwardly” motif that Paul has constructed in chapter 2 leads into the question of Ro 3:1 and concludes in Ro 9:

If , because God is no respecter of persons, Jew and non-Jew alike are to be judged by their works with or without the law; – vv 5-13

And if non-Jews that don’t have the law can do by nature the things of the law because the law has been written in their hearts (synonymous with the circumcision of heart in v 29); vv 14-15

And if Jews that have the law and glory in it have through their transgression of it caused the name of God to be blasphemed among the non-Jews; vv 17-24

And if the Jews’ circumcision becomes uncircumcision if they transgress the law; v 25

And if non-Jews fulfill the law their uncircumcision becomes circumcision and they will judge the Jews; vv 26-27

And if Jews outwardly, circumcised in the flesh by the letter are not the real Jews; v 28

And if real Jews are those inwardly circumcised in heart in the spirit, not the letter; v 29

Then:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3

Paul begins his answer here:

2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3

And comes back to it here:

3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren`s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9

But:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

Reiterating the “he is a Jew who is one inwardly” motif of chapter 2.

You cannot be justified by the deeds of the Law and not justified by the deeds of the Law at the same time. Otherwise you have a contradiction in Romans. Paul cannot state that we are justified by doing the Law and then say that no one is justified by the deeds of the Law.

I don't think Paul is being theoretical. He is literally stating that the doers of the Law shall be justified. But no one can possibly do the Law. Therefore no one is justified by the deeds of the Law.