back to the basics

[BobRyan]

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[steaver]

Holy Spirit baptism saves. Water baptism does not. The "one baptism" is the Holy Spirit baptism.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Two baptisms, one water and one Spirit conversion, only ONE saves.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

Sso we never made it to one God? Mono-Theos?


How can we ever expect to bring anyone to Christ if we can't agree what that means?

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Well, I thought you all might liven up when we got to the "one baptism". That's a good thing! Rational discussion and debate is healthy exercise for our brains, at least so long as we produce more light than heat...

Up to now we have been agreed on a total of 5 "ones". I suspect we would all agree on the seventh (one God), but I plan to make a case for that as well (it's coming, LeBuick).

Gerhard indicated that no work of human merit or obedience can save. That's not a quote, but I think it's a fair summary of his post. I would agree to this concerning works of merit, but on works of obedience I think the Bible says otherwise.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We are the servants of whomever we obey. The Romans obeyed that form of doctrine that had been delivered to them. Not until they did so did they become servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Unless we obey Him, Jesus is not the aquthor of eternal salvation to us. One cannot be saved apart from obedience.

Bob cited Rom 10:9-11, which seems quite clear and hard to be misunderstood. If it were the only passage that spoke about what is required of man to be saved, I would be foolish to disagree. However, this is not the only passage that speaks on the subject.

We've all got to be careful about choosing any one scripture as a "trump text", which denudes all other passages of any meaning. We must take all pertinent verses on a subject and form our conclusions from the whole council of God.

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

All verses pertaining to a topic are true. But to get the whole truth on any subject, we must take all information into account.

Steaver contends that it is Holy Spirit baptism which saves, and cited Mt 3:11. He stated that Holy Spirit baptism is the "one baptism" of Eph 4.

I would point out that in nearly every conversion account in Acts, water baptism is made mention of. On the other hand, Holy Spirit baptism is so rare that when it occured at the house of Cornelius, Peter had to recall all the way back to Acts 2 to find something to compare it to.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Act 11:17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us...

The apostle Peter equated the miraculous events at Cornelius' house to the verse Steaver cited, Mt 3:11, and again, he had to recall back to "the beginning" for a comparison. This was not a common event to all converts to Christianity. Water baptism was.

Time for Wed. worship.

 

[steaver]

This was not a common event to all converts to Christianity. Water baptism was.

Just because it was not recorded does not mean it was not performed in the spirit of all converts. Some converts are re-born with signs and wonders, other conversions go quietly unnoticed.

Jhn 3:8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I would point out that in nearly every conversion account in Acts, water baptism is made mention of.

Yes, everytime only AFTER the conversion, Spirit giving birth to spirit, Holy Spirit baptism.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

The apostle Peter equated the miraculous events at Cornelius' house to the verse Steaver cited, Mt 3:11, and again, he had to recall back to "the beginning" for a comparison. This was not a common event to all converts to Christianity. Water baptism was.

Time for Wed. worship.

Ok, since we are staying on Baptism, do you believe there is an outward baptism (water) and a inward baptism (Holy Spirit)? If so, do you believe they in all cases happen simultaneously?

Me, I believe the inward baptism is merely the name given to the process by which the spirit comes to live in ones heart. It is not as much "actual" as it is "factual".

Ro 8:9 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Jn 4:13 (KJV) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

There are many who believe John the Baptist was describing pre-cross vs. post cross baptism when he said, "one who commeth after me whose shoes etc..." John pre-cross Baptized to repentance. I believe the later or post cross to be a sign of salvation and not the cause of salvation.

This is why I believe the One Baptism is describing only that every saved Christian is partaker of the same (One) Baptism which is;

Ro 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and is not a count of how many baptism's there are...

 

[BobRyan]

Sso we never made it to one God? Mono-Theos?


How can we ever expect to bring anyone to Christ if we can't agree what that means?

hear O Israel the LORD is our God - the LORD is ONE !! Deut 6:4

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver contends that it is Holy Spirit baptism which saves, and cited Mt 3:11. He stated that Holy Spirit baptism is the "one baptism" of Eph 4.

I would point out that in nearly every conversion account in Acts, water baptism is made mention of. On the other hand, Holy Spirit baptism is so rare that when it occured at the house of Cornelius, Peter had to recall all the way back to Acts 2 to find something to compare it to.

Once again - Sgt. Fury is right on the money.

There are also some other details to highlight here.

1. Matt 3:11 does NOT say "My baptism does not do anything only Christ's baptism saves".

2. Christ's disciples WERE baptized by John - not by Christ.

3. BOTH Christ's disciples AND John's disciples were baptizing.

4. Christ's disciples never asked John's followers to come over and "be baptized again".

Sgt. Fury is correct to point out that the special outpouring given in Acts 2 was something that occurs AFTER the resurrection and AFTEr the sending out of Christ's own evangelists in Matt 10.

Christ did not argue that the disciples "were not saved until Acts 2".

Christ never argues that neither John nor his disciples are saved.

There is water baptism that follows the NEW BIRTH -

The NEW BIRTH is the Romans 2 work of the Holy Spirit on the heart - it is then that a person is born again - and filled with the Holy Spirit in terms of "new creation" but not in the way we see in Acts 2.

Notice that once AGAIN in Acts 4:31 many of the same followers are again "filled with the Holy Spirit. This does not mean they lost salvation in Acts 2 and were born-again once again in Acts 4 -- this is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as predicted in Joel 2 that is above and beyond the new birth.

As we saw in Acts 8 -- this does not happen at conversion or baptism -- could easily be sometime later if at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Originally by Steaver: Just because it was not recorded does not mean it was not performed in the spirit of all converts. Some converts are re-born with signs and wonders, other conversions go quietly unnoticed.

Again, given the fact that Peter had to recall "the beginning" (Acts 2) to find a comparison to what happened at Cornelius' house, and his reference to John B's words in Mat 3:11, it is evident that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was never "unnoticed". Also, some Biblical precedent for your statement might lend credence to it.

Jhn 3:8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is a common misuse of this text. There are only two things blowing around in John 3:8, wind and people. The Holy Spirit does not "blow around" converting people.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Originally by Steaver: Yes, everytime only AFTER the conversion, Spirit giving birth to spirit, Holy Spirit baptism.

Does it not seem strange that neither the Ethiopian eunuch, nor the Phillipian jailor rejoiced until after they were baptized? What could explain this except that there was an important reason to be baptized? For instance, if sins were washed away, or remitted at baptism (Acts 2:38; 22:16), or if baptism were necessary for salvation (Mk 16:16).

I wonder why Saul spent three days fasting and praying after he saw the risen Christ and repented of his sins? Or, why did Ananias think Paul was still in his sins after those three days (Acts 22:16)?

I think you need to show where anyone was converted prior to or apart from baptism.

 

[LeBuick]

I don't understand how you and Sgt Fury are saying the outpouring of the spirit in Acts 10 which cause them to be heard speaking with tongues, and magnify God is any type of Baptism. Peter asked in response are their any objections to us batizing them after their showing of faith? I don't see any reference to this being a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that once AGAIN in Acts 4:31 many of the same followers are again "filled with the Holy Spirit. This does not mean they lost salvation in Acts 2 and were born-again once again in Acts 4 -- this is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as predicted in Joel 2 that is above and beyond the new birth.

Correct, this filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same as the inward baptism or like you said, we'd be getting baptized again everytime we get a little happy from the spirit. Or in many worship services, everytime we speak in tongues etc...

1. Matt 3:11 does NOT say "My baptism does not do anything only Christ's baptism saves".

According to scripture, John's Baptism was of repentance. You are correct that I don't see where anyone had to be baptized again but we also know the water baptism is not a saving baptism but a symbol of ones salvation.

Lk 3:3 (KJV) And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Look at the sequence in Acts 10: 47 & 48. They were saved by faith and indwelt with the spirit then baptized.

Ac 10:45 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

2. Christ's disciples WERE baptized by John - not by Christ.

3. BOTH Christ's disciples AND John's disciples were baptizing.

4. Christ's disciples never asked John's followers to come over and "be baptized again".

Since all the above happened pre-cross, how did it align with this part of scripture?

Ro 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Are you saying the Baptism of John was forward looking to the cross, grave and ressurection?

 

[steaver]

Again, given the fact that Peter had to recall "the beginning" (Acts 2) to find a comparison to what happened at Cornelius' house, and his reference to John B's words in Mat 3:11, it is evident that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was never "unnoticed". Also, some Biblical precedent for your statement might lend credence to it.

Nobody noticed mine 34 years ago when I was ten. I didn't even tell anyone.

This is a common misuse of this text. There are only two things blowing around in John 3:8, wind and people. The Holy Spirit does not "blow around" converting people.

When you understand John 3 you will understand Holy Spirit baptism. I can't make you understand.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I think you need to show where anyone was converted prior to or apart from baptism.

EVERY passage that tells of water baptism declares "belief" (converted) BEFORE they were baptised.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

I think you need to show where anyone was converted prior to or apart from baptism.

I must not be reading this sentence correctly, all Men are saved and converted apart from Baptism or Baptism would be the saving act. In each case we baptize someone who has accepted/confessed Christ which means they are saved. Then Baptized...

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Originally by Lebuick: This is why I believe the One Baptism is describing only that every saved Christian is partaker of the same (One) Baptism which is;

Ro 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and is not a count of how many baptism's there are...

LeBuick, I'm going to say that if each of the other "ones" is a numerical count, (there are no advocates for having more than one Spirit or Lord), it would seem inconsistent to allow for more than one baptism in any sense.

Given the rare nature of H.S. baptism (Acts 2 and 10), and the abundance of water baptism, as well as the descriptions of baptism in the epistles, as you cited, I would conclude that the only baptism common to all Christians is water baptism.

To insist upon H.S. baptism being still available while practicing water baptism is having more than one baptism, and puts one at odds with Eph 4:4, doesn't it?

 

[steaver]

It makes it easier to follow if everyone would say either "water baptism" or "Spirit baptism" when talking about this subject so there isn't any confusion.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Can anyone show where one is saved by faith only? (MAN, we're off topic!)

 

[steaver]

To insist upon H.S. baptism being still available while practicing water baptism is having more than one baptism, and puts one at odds with Eph 4:4, doesn't it?

Not as I see it. There is only one baptism into Christ and that is conversion, Spirit giving birth to spirit.

There was no Spirit given until after the ressurrection so those John were baptising with water didn't receive the SPirit. Johns baptism was a sign of things to come, a picture.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Concerning baptism being a saving act:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In what sense does baptism now save us, if not in a salvation sense?