back to the basics

[Sgt. Fury]

Don't stop there, read the next verse in Joel...

Joel 2:29 (KJV) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

I don't know if your theory holds truth???

If we look at the preceding verses, we can see that this prophecy has been fulfilled.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...

The "last days" began with the preaching of the gospel of Christ. The New Testament was written during the "last days" (Heb 1:2). There will be no future fulfillment of this prophecy.

When an inspired apostle says "this is that", then that's that.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I don't know about that, I thought we BELIEVED unto righteousness...

Ro 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Sure worked for Abraham and the list of folks in Heb 11...

The people listed in Heb 11, including Abraham, all did something by faith. Their faith was completed by appropriate action. See what I mean.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered... by which he obtained witness that he was righteous

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah... prepared an ark... and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham... obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned...

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham... offered up Isaac

Etc, etc...

Remember, faith without works is dead (James 2:20-26).

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Also, we need to understand the difference between "unto" and "into".

Here's a definition for "unto".

1. to (in its various uses, except as the accompaniment of the infinitive).
2. until; till.

Here's one for "into".

1. to the inside of; in toward: He walked into the room. The train chugged into the station.
2. toward or in the direction of: going into town.
3. to a point of contact with; against: backed into a parked car.
4. (used to indicate insertion or immersion in): plugged into the socket.
5. (used to indicate entry, inclusion, or introduction in a place or condition): received into the church.

One could come unto my house without coming into my house.

One comes unto Christ through belief, repentance, and confession, but one comes into Christ (where all spiritual blessings are - Eph 1:3) only through baptism.

Both of these words in the KJV are translated from the same Greek word eis, yet the translators used different words in Rom 10:10 (unto), and Rom 6:3 (into).

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Then more was required of Paul to be saved then was required for Abraham to be saved? Is this "two" faiths?

Remember that the text under discussion says that there is one body, Spirit, hope, faith, Lord, baptism, God. Under the New Testament, all of these things are in the singular.

Certainly we all understand that there have been other God ordained systems of religion in the past. Abraham lived under the Patriarchal system. Baptism was not commanded under that system, animal sacrifices were.

Animal sacrifices are not commanded under the New Testament, baptism is.

Apples and oranges, man.

 

[Darron Steele]

From where I sit, there is only one faith.

Scripture goes into great depth over the nature of proper biblical faith -- yet it is simple.

In biblical faith on Jesus Christ, there are certain dispositions. First, Acts 16:31a says “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved” (ASV|NASB). When we believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, that means we accept that He is the Boss.

That belief will involve obedience, which is a disposition where we submit our wills to His will. Hebrews 3:18b-9 has “to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were |not obedient|? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief” (NASB|BishB|ESV). “Believe” = be “obedient.”

When we believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, we realize that we must stop living our own way in discordance with His will. We then repent of living our own way. Mark 1:15 has “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). To "believe the Gospel" involves repentance.

When we realize that Jesus Christ is Lord, we realize that we ought to do as He taught. Before the time of Acts 11:26, Christians were called “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB). Greek translated “disciples” is rendered “followers” in the ICB at Acts 11:26. The Greek here is plural for a Greek word meaning "one who follows one’s teachings."* Hence, as believers, we agree that what Christ taught is right, and should be followed.

Lastly, biblical faith involves turning to Christ for salvation. Acts 4:12 “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved” (ASV). Romans 10:13 says “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (ASV). We must turn to Him as our hope of salvation.

This faith is very powerful. At Acts 10:43b Peter said of Jesus Christ “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins” (ASV).

In specific settings of Scripture, certain actions are associated with this faith. However, Scripture was clear at Acts 10:43 as to the univerasl truth: this type of faith is so powerful that "every one" who has it is ensured "remission of sins."


____
*Vine, et al, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary, page 171 NT.

 

[Darron Steele]

There is also only one baptism. In ancient Judaism, baptism of converts followed circumcision. Jewish convert baptism is not discussed in Scripture directly, but it was discussed in rabbinic literature. In Scripture, Judaism makes someone a Jew, but in Talmud Yebamoth 47, it was not until completed baptism that the conversion was accepted as complete.

Jesus and His apostles were Jews. The first Christians were Jews as well. Acts 2:42-7 shows that the first Christians continued to live as Jews. Acts 21 reports that Jewish Christians did as well -- although they did not expect Gentile Christians to do so. In Acts 23, Paul was very clear in not disclaiming his identity as a Jew.

A proper understanding of Christian baptism, therefore, cannot be divorced from what it meant in ancient Judaism at the time. Only Jews were baptized. Non-Jews were not baptized.

The main meaning of the Greek transliterated “baptize/baptism” is "completely submerge."* At Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus said “make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, |enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you.”**

We are to make "disciples" of Jesus Christ, and we are to "completely submerge" them in His Name. Per Acts 11:26, "Christians" is synomymous with generic "disciples" as used in Acts. Matthew 28:19-20 means that we are to "completely submerge" Christians. If the people being submerged are not Christians when they are submerged in water, we are baptizing non-Christians/non-disciples. This would be a mismatch to Jesus Christ's command.

In conversion baptism, we baptize new converts to Christ. In Ephesians 4, the point is that all Christians are appointed the same conversion rite -- there is no distinction.

___
*Stamatis, Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church, page 191.
**NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't understand how you and Sgt Fury are saying the outpouring of the spirit in Acts 10 which cause them to be heard speaking with tongues, and magnify God is any type of Baptism.

Only Baptism in the sense of "He will Baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" as John predicted.

Not Baptism (water baptism) as we see normally mentioned in all the rest of the NT - such as in Romans 6 for example or 1Peter 3.

Peter asked in response are their any objections to us batizing them after their showing of faith? I don't see any reference to this being a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed it was not. It is simply water baptism. And Peter is commenting on the very unnusual fact that the Joel 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit came upon them BEFORE their water baptism.

John refers to this as a "Baptism with Holy Spirit and with fire" but no other NT author speaks of it as "Baptism".

Note that John also refers to the punishment of the wicked in Rev 20 as "The Lake of Fire" no other NT writer uses that term.

Correct, this filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same as the inward baptism or like you said, we'd be getting baptized again everytime we get a little happy from the spirit. Or in many worship services, everytime we speak in tongues etc...

Indeed and it would be problematic to try to tie each one of those to a Romans 6 context for Baptism.

According to scripture, John's Baptism was of repentance. You are correct that I don't see where anyone had to be baptized again but we also know the water baptism is not a saving baptism but a symbol of ones salvation.

Lk 3:3 (KJV) And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Look at the sequence in Acts 10: 47 & 48. They were saved by faith and indwelt with the spirit then baptized.

All true. But also John's work was salvific. He went around preaching the same "Gospel of the Kingdom" that Christ preached. Christ's disciples were baptized by John - not Christ.

Since all the above happened pre-cross, how did it align with this part of scripture?

Ro 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Are you saying the Baptism of John was forward looking to the cross, grave and ressurection?

Indeed John's message was "Christ centered" what the Bible calls Messiah in the OT -- the Greeks call "Christ" in the NT.

Remember as we saw in Gal 1:6-11 "There is only ONE Gospel" and it is that SAME Gospel that accomplised salvation for the giants of faith that we see listed in Heb 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Does it not seem strange that neither the Ethiopian eunuch, nor the Phillipian jailor rejoiced until after they were baptized? What could explain this except that there was an important reason to be baptized? For instance, if sins were washed away, or remitted at baptism (Acts 2:38; 22:16), or if baptism were necessary for salvation (Mk 16:16).

I wonder why Saul spent three days fasting and praying after he saw the risen Christ and repented of his sins? Or, why did Ananias think Paul was still in his sins after those three days (Acts 22:16)?

I think you need to show where anyone was converted prior to or apart from baptism.

Clearly this happened in Acts 10-11 with Cornelius. They listen believe and accept are filled with the special outpouring of the Joel 2 promise of the Holy Spirit and THEN are baptized.

In the case of the saints of Heb 11 -- few of them were baptized - yet all saved.

As Peter says in 1Peter 3 it is the "APPEAL to God for a clean conscience that saves".

Baptism is a symbol of our being united with Christ in His death and resurrection. It is not "the moment we decide for Christ" for how could we "suddenly be in water" at the moment we make that decision.

Rather it is an act of obedience that we "choose" after making that decision for Christ.

I believe the sequence given in Romans 10 is correct when it comes to the moment of salvation and what transpires and marks it.

But walking in obedience is the fruit of that "new birth" because the New Covenant is "the Law of God written on the heart" - and so the believer immediately chooses for baptism after first choosing Christ.

We all agree that nobody is going into the waters of baptism rejecting Christ and coming out - choosing Christ and confessing Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is also only one baptism. In ancient Judaism, baptism of converts followed circumcision. Jewish convert baptism is not discussed in Scripture directly, but it was discussed in rabbinic literature. In Scripture, Judaism makes someone a Jew, but in Talmud Yebamoth 47, it was not until completed baptism that the conversion was accepted as complete.

Jesus and His apostles were Jews. The first Christians were Jews as well. Acts 2:42-7 shows that the first Christians continued to live as Jews. Acts 21 reports that Jewish Christians did as well -- although they did not expect Gentile Christians to do so. In Acts 23, Paul was very clear in not disclaiming his identity as a Jew.

Don't you mean in "PROCLAIMING his identity as a Jew"??

Acts 21
22 ""What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 ""Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; [b]and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Notice the "recommendation" is to explicitly follow the Num 6:1-11 oath SHOWING in the eyes of all that Paul not only taught conformity to the OT text of scripture (God's Word) - but HE HIMSELF PRACTICED it. The saints in Jerusalem argued that this would be public VISIBLE PROOF that the charges made against Paul were false[/b].


Paul confirms this a few times afterwards -- in fact every time he gets a chance.



Acts 23:4-9
6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"
7 As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, "We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

This is amazing – Paul is so “Jewish” he claims “ I AM a Pharisee” and some of the non-Christian Pharisees consider Christianity to be so much a sect of Judaism that they can claim “WE find NOTHING wrong with this man”!!

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Acts 24:14-18
13 "Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me.
14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;
15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
16 "In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.
17 "Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings;
18 in which they found me occupied in the temple, having been purified, without any crowd or uproar But there were some Jews from Asia--
19 who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me.

Here Paul is not preaching “Two Gospels” rather HE claims to believe the scriptures – ALL of them and he also points out that Christianity is being considered a “sect” within Judaism – worshipping the same God – believing in and accepting the same scriptures!

Paul again makes reference to the OT purification ritual that he undertook to PROVE that he continued to follow the OT ceremonies.


Acts 25:8-11
Acts 25
8 while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sorry I don't have time now a days for the Board. I would have liked to follow the debate more closely. So I throw the stone into the bush where the lion lies, as we say in Afrikaans.

Said the Sarge, "Gerhard indicated that no work of human merit or obedience can save. That's not a quote, but I think it's a fair summary of his post. I would agree to this concerning works of merit, but on works of obedience I think the Bible says otherwise."

GE
Man has no works of merit; not even his works of obedience are meritorious. The Bible does not distinguish, but says our righteousness is like filthy rags - sin. When God declares he is going to reward us, He means He is going to reward Christ's obedience in our stead.

I understand Steaver, and think I agree with him most. But then he said there are two baptisms, only the one saving. I gues the one that cannot save, he means to be water-baptism. So what the need for it? If no need, it shouldn't be in Christian Faith. Christian Faith ONLY allows what is useful unto salvation.

Water-baptism as a sign of Apostleship is needful unto salvation. It stopped with the foudation on Apostleship once astablished. For us after them, water-baptism has become presumptuousness - and ALL Churches display great pride - to the shame of Jesus Christ - in their own version of it : versions not only distinguishable by the use of water or method; but by dogma surrounding baptism.

I hope some day Christianity will also reform as far as water-baptism is concerned, and will shed it like it shook off some of the heresies of the great whore during the Reformation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan has summed it up best: "the believer immediately chooses for baptism after first choosing Christ."

GE

It shows how Christ only isn't good enough. the believer having chosen for Christ has finished choosing altogether. As little as there can be a substitute can there be a next. The Christian's choice for Christ has been his baptism with the baptism of Christ which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God has set His S

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sgt Fury,
"One comes unto Christ through belief, repentance, and confession, but one comes into Christ (where all spiritual blessings are - Eph 1:3) only through baptism."

GE

Yes! Just show me where it ADDS, 'in water'!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sgt Fury:
One comes unto Christ through belief, repentance, and confession, but one comes into Christ (where all spiritual blessings are - Eph 1:3) only through baptism."

GE
I think this comes nearer to what BobRyan might have meant --- One comes into Christ (where all spiritual blessings are - Eph 1:3) only through the baptism of Christ which is by the Holy Spirit; and then, follows one's spiritual life in the flesh where one comes unto Christ through belief, repentance, and confession.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The real issue hasn't changed through two millennia of Christianity: The false: Convert yourself and God will regerate you; The True: God will regenerate you, and then convert you.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Originally by Gerhard Ebersoehn: I understand Steaver, and think I agree with him most. But then he said there are two baptisms, only the one saving. I gues the one that cannot save, he means to be water-baptism. So what the need for it? If no need, it shouldn't be in Christian Faith. Christian Faith ONLY allows what is useful unto salvation.

I actually agree with this statement. I have suggested, for the sake of consistency, that groups who believe that Holy Spirit baptism is still taking place and is indeed the baptism that saves stop baptizing people in water.

So long as such groups persist in performing water baptism, they contradict the Scriptures by their actions. They claim to believe the Bible. The Bible says there is "one baptism". They claim one and practice another, which makes two baptisms.

Just be consistent.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Sgt Fury,
"One comes unto Christ through belief, repentance, and confession, but one comes into Christ (where all spiritual blessings are - Eph 1:3) only through baptism."

GE

Yes! Just show me where it ADDS, 'in water'!

The baptism that puts one "into Christ" is described as a burial and a raising (Rom 6:3-5; Col 2:12). What baptism can be described in this way?

Were/are people buried in the Holy Spirit and then raised up out of him again?

OR

Were/are people buried in water and then raised up out of it again?

Which one fits the description?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan has summed it up best: "the believer immediately chooses for baptism after first choosing Christ."

GE

It shows how Christ only isn't good enough. the believer having chosen for Christ has finished choosing altogether. As little as there can be a substitute can there be a next. The Christian's choice for Christ has been his baptism with the baptism of Christ which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God has set His S

In 1Cor 15 Paul chooses to "Die daily"

In Luke 9 Christ argues that the true disciple must choose to deny self daily - choose to "take up his cross daily and follow Me".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

In 1Cor 15 Paul chooses to "Die daily"

In Luke 9 Christ argues that the true disciple must choose to deny self daily - choose to "take up his cross daily and follow Me".

in Christ,

Bob

Isn't this the symbolism of the baptism? One dies to self as they go in the water and are born to Christ (newness of life) coming out?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In 1Cor 15 Paul chooses to "Die daily"

In Luke 9 Christ argues that the true disciple must choose to deny self daily - choose to "take up his cross daily and follow Me".

in Christ,

Bob

GE

Yes, BobRyan, Yes! Just read yourself and hear yourself proclaiming it not even knowing: "...the true disciple must choose to deny self daily ...": THE TRUE DISCIPLE! Every moment, not only every day, "the true", disciple by the Holy Spirit, of Christ, by Grace, through faith<the gift of God, CHOOSES, ACTS, OBEYS. And otherwise, hecan do nothing but pretend hypocritically.

 

[steaver]

Can I have a definition of those who are "in Christ". Not how they get there. Give me the attributes of those who are in Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs: