Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

[CJP69]

That is odd. Church history knows nothing of the sort!

Is there any chance that you're going to answer the question I asked?

 

[Silverhair]

I think John said it well, He {Jesus} will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Luke 3:16-17

One will be baptized by the Holy Spirit for salvation, those that believe and by fire for judgement, those that do not believe.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I think John said it well, He {Jesus} will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Luke 3:16-17

One will be baptized by the Holy Spirit for salvation, those that believe and by fire for judgement, those that do not believe.

Did you not notice that this thread is about what Peter wrote concerning water baptism—and not about Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit and fire?

 

[Silverhair]

Did you not notice that this thread is about what Peter wrote concerning water baptism—and not about Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit and fire?

Yes I did but what Peter says has to agree with what actual baptism is would you not agree?

Or do you think 1Pe 3:21 is indicating another form of baptism?

 

[kyredneck]

One will be baptized by the Holy Spirit for salvation, those that believe and by fire for judgement, those that do not believe.

Wrong.

'Belief' is not in the context. It's whether one belongs to the devil or not, whether one is 'His wheat' or 'the chaff' - Romans 9:21-23.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

No mention of faith here.

 

[CJP69]

Wrong.

'Belief' is not in the context. It's whether one belongs to the devil or not, whether one is 'His wheat' or 'the chaff' - Romans 9:21-23.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

No mention of faith here.

Romans 9 isn't even about any individual's salvation anyway. Romans 9 is about the nation of Israel being cut off because of unbelief. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 being applied to the NATION of Israel. It isn't about how, why or whether some particular person gets saved or not.

Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong.

'Belief' is not in the context. It's whether one belongs to the devil or not, whether one is 'His wheat' or 'the chaff' - Romans 9:21-23.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

No mention of faith here.

So when is one baptized with the Holy Spirit? Who are the wheat and who are the chaff?

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 9 isn't even about any individual's salvation anyway. Romans 9 is about the nation of Israel being cut off because of unbelief. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 being applied to the NATION of Israel. It isn't about how, why or whether some particular person gets saved or not.

Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

Evidently, Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

 

[Silverhair]

Evidently, Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

Trust what the bible says KY not what you want it to say.

 

[kyredneck]

So when is one baptized with the Holy Spirit?

The prophet is speaking to corporate Israel. This baptism of the spirit began at Pentecost. The baptism of fire was the tribulation that came upon 'that generation' on whom all the blood shed on the land came upon (Matthew 23:33-36), "even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees" - 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16.

 

[Silverhair]

The prophet is speaking to corporate Israel. This baptism of the spirit began at Pentecost. The baptism of fire was the tribulation that came upon 'that generation' on whom all the blood shed on the land came upon (Matthew 23:33-36), "even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees" - 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16.

When are people judged and cast into hell KY?

 

[CJP69]

Evidently, Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

Evidently?

I'd probably pass out if anyone on this website ever presented me with actual evidence against a single syllable of what I've said in that post, or most anything else I say for that matter! It seems that all you people have is single sentence quips that are completely bereft of anything but you own vapid person opinions that not even you care enough about to establish with anything that resembles an actual argument.

Color me bored!

 

[MrW]

I didn't notice that it was a link. I thought you were asking the question.

Dozens?

 

[CJP69]

Dozens?

Jews used to baptize everyone and everything in any number of ways and for all kinds of reasons.

They would baptize a couch before sitting on it if they felt the situation called for it.

 

[Believeth]

When are people judged and cast into hell KY?

Though this question wasn't addressed to me, I thought I'd share my analysis.

Just as God knew the identity of the saved prior to creation, He also knew the identity of the lost. In that sense, the lost have been eternally judged and will all but certainly be cast into hell at the end of time.

 

[Silverhair]

Though this question wasn't addressed to me, I thought I'd share my analysis.

Just as God knew the identity of the saved prior to creation, He also knew the identity of the lost. In that sense, the lost have been eternally judged and will all but certainly be cast into hell at the end of time.

God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him is not them being judged. They are judged at the time they make their choice.

If we went by your view then we have to call into question many verses in the bible. But you do conveniently ignore one of the main tenets of your religious system. Those that are consigned to hell are there because God determined that they would reject Him which really calls into question the character of your version of God. What kind of love do we see in the God you present?

A simple reading of scripture shows that the Calvinist version of God is not the God of the bible.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Believeth]

God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him is not them being judged. They are judged at the time they make their choice.

They are judged before they make real time choices.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Those that are consigned to hell are there because God determined that they would reject Him which really calls into question the character of your version of God. What kind of love do we see in the God you present?

Since God intended to glorify Himself by redeeming a particular people at the cross, it was necessary for all human beings to be fallen in Adam from the beginning.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Man can only make choices that are consistent with their fallen nature. God can still demonstrate love to the lost by giving them the opportunity to fulfill the lusts of their flesh and experience the pleasures of the world rather than sending them to face judgement sooner.

 

[Ascetic X]

God can still demonstrate love to the lost by giving them the opportunity to fulfill the lusts of their flesh and experience the pleasures of the world rather than sending them to face judgement sooner.

I do not see how giving people opportunity to sin, to fulfill lusts and enjoy the pleasures of the world, is a way that God can demonstrate love to the lost.

James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

The more they sin, the darker their soul becomes, the further from God they wander, the more addicted they become to self-indulgences, the less likely they will want to repent, and the more their punishments will increase.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

We were speaking of God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him.

Would you care to explain how Rom 9:11 fits God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him?

Rom 9:11 has nothing to do with your calvinist view of election B4 creation.

It is showing Gods choice of Jacob over Esau as the line Christ would come through.

Man can only make choices that are consistent with their fallen nature. God can still demonstrate love to the lost by giving them the opportunity to fulfill the lusts of their flesh and experience the pleasures of the world rather than sending them to face judgement sooner.

You say man can only make choices consistent with his fallen nature. But according to your calvinism God has determined what man's nature would be so man is only doing just what God has determined for him to do. So why would He condemn them for that?

So you think it shows God's love to condemn them for just being faithful to His decrees? That seems rather odd don't you think.

There in is the problem with the calvinist philosophy. You need God to determine all things and yet say man is responsible for sins God degrees.

You say God has to control everything down to the smallest dust mite and yet think man, who is much bigger than a dust mite, can somehow overcome that control and is responsible for the sin for the God decreed sins he commits.

Calvinists cannot seem to understand their own philosophy. Or perhaps you just ignore the reality of your view.

 

[Silverhair]

I do not see how giving people opportunity to sin, to fulfill lusts and enjoy the pleasures of the world, is a way that God can demonstrate love to the lost.

James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

The more they sin, the darker their soul becomes, the further from God they wander, the more addicted they become to self-indulgences, the less likely they will want to repent, and the more their punishments will increase.

You have to remember that @Believeth is not trying to justify God's love for the lost but rather the twisted calvinist view of God's love for the lost.