1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we lived as "not a people" chosen by God. It is a lock.
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Before the Foundation of the World
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Van said: ↑
1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we lived as "not a people" chosen by God. It is a lock.
Brightfame52 said:
Rabbit trail comment !
Here we have one of those profound responses to biblical truth. No effort to address the obvious truth of 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Despite all the posters blowing smokescreed, names are written in the Lamb's book of life "from" or since creation, and not before. This is the truth so desperately being evaded. Ask yourselves why if we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world were our names written since the foundation of the world. MacArthur might tell you to accept the paradox. This is the same sort of line cult leaders tell their victims.
What is the actual answer to the dilemma? Individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world, individuals have been and are being chosen from or since the foundation of the world. Since scripture (1 Peter 2:9-10) precludes individual election before creation, the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, when God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The gospel is simple and straightforward and understandable even to children.
1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we lived as "not a people" chosen by God. It is a lock.
Brightfame52 said:
Rabbit trail comment !
Here we have one of those profound responses to biblical truth. No effort to address the obvious truth of 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Despite all the posters blowing smokescreed, names are written in the Lamb's book of life "from" or since creation, and not before. This is the truth so desperately being evaded. Ask yourselves why if we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world were our names written since the foundation of the world. MacArthur might tell you to accept the paradox. This is the same sort of line cult leaders tell their victims.
What is the actual answer to the dilemma? Individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world, individuals have been and are being chosen from or since the foundation of the world. Since scripture (1 Peter 2:9-10) precludes individual election before creation, the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, when God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The gospel is simple and straightforward and understandable even to children.
Off topic smokescreed, asked and answered many times. Romans 9:16 ring a bell? This is yet another effort to bury God's truth. The post (#63) above presents obvious biblical truth...
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Second off topic smokescreed post for the purpose of changing the subject from the thread topic.
More smokescreed, more false charges directed at me personally, this is all they have folks. They assert their view is valid and any other interpretation is "changing scripture." Twaddle
1) I present what the Bible actually says and not the perversion based on Calvinism's presumptions.
2) To deny the rather mainstream view that the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate is to obviously embrace falsehood.
3) To claim I might think the "entire body of Christ is wrong" is just another personal attack, another use of logical fallacy to promote false doctrine.
4) Note once again, absolutely no rebuttal to the fact 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before creation.
Despite all the posters blowing smokescreed, names are written in the Lamb's book of life "from" or since creation, and not before. This is the truth so desperately being evaded. Ask yourselves why if we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world were our names written since the foundation of the world. MacArthur might tell you to accept the paradox. This is the same sort of line cult leaders tell their victims.
What is the actual answer to the dilemma? Individuals were not chosen before the foundation of the world, individuals have been and are being chosen from or since the foundation of the world. Since scripture (1 Peter 2:9-10) precludes individual election before creation, the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, when God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The gospel is simple and straightforward and understandable even to children.
If he knows them before they exist, then they exist. No time boundary to Him
Ain't that a piece of news!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Of course not with God, We weren't talking about God being responsible !
Scripture says only God existed before creation, but some of our resident experts say God created creation before He actually created creation. Now that is very creative. Why, to get around yet another paradox "created" by false doctrine. Yet another solution to the paradox is that God did not create His knowledge of creation, like Himself, the knowledge is eternal with no beginning. Now they tell us when scripture says God created, we must realize it is just a figure of speech. And the beat go on..
Yet another denier of creation...
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Yes the act was before the foundation of the world in God's attribute of being outside of creation and time. All of humanity were placed in the Lamb's book of life. Not just a predetermined set amount. The Lamb slain is the Atonement that placed all of humanity in the Lamb's book of life.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do not over think it?
The whole concept of Calvinism is over thinking the Word of God. This theology misses the whole point of the Atonement.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Lamb's book of life has been sealed since the foundation. Your point is that nothing can exist before existence. The Lamb's book of life did exist before Creation. It was the sealed Atonement Covenant. It is only starting to be unsealed in the last few years. There is no adding, removing, nor editing for spelling variations that caught God off-guard.
The only thing that can happen is when it is unsealed, names will start to be removed. Revelation 6:7-8 introduces us to a new place besides sheol.
"When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!” I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him."
Why do we now have Death along with sheol? Those in sheol died before any name could be removed. That is why the Lamb's book of life is opened at the GWT. Those in sheol will be removed at that point. Death is the new place of torment. It contains those who have been removed after the 7th Seal has been unsealed, and names of people living today will be removed. The first judgment is the sheep and goats. The sheep remain, and the goats will be removed and placed in Death. Then in the Thunders the tares are removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death. The wheat is harvested. During the last 42 months, those who recieve the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are not killed, for taking the mark. If they do die, because people will do what people do now, and in anger kill each other, immediately sent to Death. Satan will also be killing those who refuse to worship, mark or no mark. I guess if one is still a calvanist at that point, being killed without the mark, will still land you in Death. Life will be given to those who get their head chopped off, to avoid receiving the mark. It will be a conscious choice. The last choice they will have to make in life. Should Calvinist assume the mark will just appear without a choice? To say a name was never there, then that would remove the choice to have one's head chopped off or recieve the mark.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is interesting that God "created" 3 persons to interact with creation itself. Except that after the Cross, in the resurrection body, Jesus as physical could step out of creation. Because He claimed to be going away to prepare a place. This was the act of Creation in Genesis 1:1. That is how Atonement was made possible on the Cross before Creation.
The only other place outside of creation is the GWT. Revelation 20 states heaven and earth will pass away, and only the GWT will exist and the dead will stand outside of creation at the GWT.
John does not state where the living are. It would seem to me they either on earth or in Paradise will simply see one vanish and the next creation immediately form around them. Only the dead at the GWT will be suspended without time or space until they are sent to the Lake of Fire. Which leaves the point, will some dead, be able to remain in the Lamb's book of life? They certainly will not be part of the glorified living in the New Jerusalem. I still think it is a choice of free will until the decision is finalized by each individual at the point a name is removed.
The only one's who do not have a choice are the goats in Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
How much of these verses fit Calvinism?
These goats are totally depraved. They had no choice in the matter. Since all was predestined did they do anything to help others? Now I think these are only Israelites. I do wonder if some Calvinist will find out that day they really were descendants of Jacob.
I do not think goats are code name and symbolic of those who accept the theology of Calvinism. Just pointing out the lack of choice in the matter, these goats have, of who they are.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Since God knew all the names of every person ever to be born, writing them in a book that was outside of creation is not an issue. The Word becoming flesh as a baby human was not an issue.
Did God exist as three individuals seconds before Creation? No that would be impossible since there is no time outside of Creation.
Saying that God could be more than three persons would mean a change in reality in how we know God.
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