Belief not a gift

[Reformed1689]

did you know, when Jesus says, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen" (Matthew 20:26), that the Greek adjective, κλητός, means "INVITED"? Does this indicate to you DRAG or FORCE?

You are the one who is FORCING your own theology on the Word of God, and you will always FAIL!

You must be reading a different Bible. That's not Matthew 20:26.

 

[Revmitchell]

Let's start with verses 35-51

OK let's start with v.39:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me but raise it up on the last day.

Ok the context is not everyone it is only His disciples. Much of what Jesus said during His ministry was directed at His disciples and the Jews of His day.

John 17:12 makes this context clear:

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

It cannot be argued that He was talking about you and I. Further, the losing is not talking about salvation but service. Its the same context the reformed folks get wrong in Romans 9 when Paul quotes God who says :
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

The context is about service not salvation as is evidenced in "The older will serve the younger".

 

[Reformed1689]

did you know, when Jesus says, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen" (Matthew 20:26), that the Greek adjective, κλητός, means "INVITED"? Does this indicate to you DRAG or FORCE?

You are the one who is FORCING your own theology on the Word of God, and you will always FAIL!

When you get the reference right, you will know that doesn't negate my point AT ALL. Everyone has the general call. But only few are drawn to the Son by the Father to be saved.

 

[Reformed1689]

OK let's start with v.39:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me but raise it up on the last day.

Ok the context is not everyone it is only His disciples. Much of what Jesus said during His ministry was directed at His disciples and the Jews of His day.

John 17:12 makes this context clear:

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

It cannot be argued that He was talking about you and I. Further, the losing is not talking about salvation but service. Its the same context the reformed folks get wrong in Romans 9 when Paul quotes God who says :
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

The context is about service not salvation as is evidenced in "The older will serve the younger".

That is about the sloppiest exegesis I have ever seen. No, chapter six is not directed to the disciples only. That is absurd. Yes, 17:12. But that was at a much later date. You cannot say that context determines chapter six' context. That is just sloppy.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Please cite references.

John Calvin, had this to say on this verse:

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Dr Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, has this to say on the use of “kosmos” here:

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

 

[SavedByGrace]

When you get the reference right, you will know that doesn't negate my point AT ALL. Everyone has the general call. But only few are drawn to the Son by the Father to be saved.

WHAT is the general CALL for??? to tell them that they are going to hell??? This is the NONSENSE of your theology!

 

[DaveXR650]

I am quite sure your question is sincere but it is odd. One does not lead to the other. However, I have stated clearly that I believe God sends someone to preach the gospel. The gospel does the internal work at that point (Hebrews 4:12) and God regenerates after belief. The word of God produces belief (Romans 10:17).

Well if the word of God produces belief and God sends someone with the Word, then it's a gift. That was good enough for me when I was a fundy Baptist. I just happen to believe now that the HS regenerates and enables you to believe. As long as you aren't trying to take CREDIT for your faith as the deciding factor in your salvation I have no quarrel with your explanation.

 

[Revmitchell]

That is about the sloppiest exegesis I have ever seen. No, chapter six is not directed to the disciples only. That is absurd. Yes, 17:12. But that was at a much later date. You cannot say that context determines chapter six' context. That is just sloppy.

Determines it no, supports my position yes. Brother, its easy to just say its sloppy but you have not made a case as to why it is or any support as to why your position is the correct one. What is the determining factor for the context in John 6 for you?

 

[Reformed1689]

Determines it no, supports my position yes. Brother, its easy to just say its sloppy but you have not made a case as to why it is or any support as to why your position is the correct one. What is the determining factor for the context in John 6 for you?

It definitely does not support your position in the slightest for reasons I have already given. There is no indication from the text is only referencing the disciples. In fact, the immediate context of the passage is talking about whoever believes. What would make you believe that to be limited to only the 12? That makes no sense. He is not only addressing the disciples in chapter six either. He is addressing the Jews. So no, there is zero chance that the context limits it to the 12.

 

[Reformed1689]

WHAT is the general CALL for??? to tell them that they are going to hell??? This is the NONSENSE of your theology!

The general call is so they are without excuse. Clearly you don't read your Bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

John Calvin, had this to say on this verse:

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Dr Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, has this to say on the use of “kosmos” here:

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

And here is why I can't take you seriously. You always take things out of context, including Calvin. Here is the next paragraph after the one you cited. Emphasis mine:

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father—that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John, vol. 1 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 125.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The general call is so they are without excuse. Clearly you don't read your Bible.

Show me this from the Bible. That the non elect get a CALL from God to tell them they are without excuse?

You guys make it up

 

[Reformed1689]

Show me this from the Bible. That the non elect get a CALL from God to tell them they are without excuse?

You guys make it up

Like I said, you must not read your Bible.

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 1:19–25.

 

[SavedByGrace]

And here is why I can't take you seriously. You always take things out of context, including Calvin. Here is the next paragraph after the one you cited. Emphasis mine:

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father—that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John, vol. 1 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 125.

this has got nothing to do with the fact that Calvin believed that Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, as is very clear from his own words on John 3:16!

All Calvin is saying here, is that God opens the eyes of the elect so that they can believe. This does not mean that Jesus died only for the elect

Calvin on:

John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Mark 14:24;

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

These are plain so that you cannot twist what they say!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Like I said, you must not read your Bible.

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 1:19–25.

WHERE does it say anywhere here, that God has CALLED the lost? WHY would He even do so???

 

[Reformed1689]

this has got nothing to do with the fact that Calvin believed that Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, as is very clear from his own words on John 3:16!

All Calvin is saying here, is that God opens the eyes of the elect so that they can believe. This does not mean that Jesus died only for the elect

Calvin on:

John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Mark 14:24;

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

These are plain so that you cannot twist what they say!

Yep, all people groups. Calvin does not say anywhere in those segments anything about INDIVIDUALS. I know you can't seem to comprehend the difference.

 

[Reformed1689]

WHERE does it say anywhere here, that God has CALLED the lost? WHY would He even do so???

I've already answered this.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yep, all people groups. Calvin does not say anywhere in those segments anything about INDIVIDUALS. I know you can't seem to comprehend the difference.

Can you understand the English language??

Read again Calvin on John 3.16, where he very clearly says

EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION

Do you know what this means???

 

[SavedByGrace]

I've already answered this.

With your warped understanding

 

[Iconoclast]

The use of Kosmos here in 3:16, cannot mean the "elect", because we are told that the "whoever believes" OUR OF this WORLD, used here, will be saved. This means that there are SOME out of this ELECT WORLD, if we so understand it, will not be saved! The reformed theologian, Robert Dabney said that it was ABRURD to take WORLD here to mean ELECT, and he is 100% RIGHT. John Calvin says that it means, "everyone without exception"!

There you have it, IF you are willing to accept what the Bible says!

I did not say world means elect.
I said the elect exist worldwide.
I said the everyone believing are the elect.
The others love sin, not God.