Biblical Chastening

[DHK]

So why the chastisement and the advocate with God if we sin?

This is a question I asked you in another thread. You danced around it for about five pages and wouldn't answer it. He is our advocate (an advocate for believers only), in order to restore our fellowship, our walk with God, not our salvation. We can never lose our salvation, but we do sin. Every believer sins. So 1John 2:1 tells us that when we do sin we have an advocate, a go-between between the believer and God the Father who restores our fellowship with God. He intercedes on our behalf. It has nothing to do with salvation, but everything to do with our fellowship with God. That is why (in 1John 1:9) we are told to confess our sins and he will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We need a daily cleansing. We sin daily. Every day we need to come to the Lord and confess our sins and have that fellowship with him restored. Sin breaks the fellowship we have with God.

Not according to scripture.

1 Corth 6:
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes, according to Scripture, all sin is of equal value in God's sight. He says plainly that sin is a transgression of the law. Why not just believe that verse. You have taken this verse out of its context many times and have made it say something it was never meant to say. Let's look at the mistakes you make when you keep on quoting the verse.

1. You ignore the historical context. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a very carnal church. He listst some of their sins as examples of how they lived. This may not be true of everyone. He is writing specifically to the problems at the Corinthian Church and addressing them and their problems. He lists these sins and situations, and then says quite clearly But such were some of you. He doesn't say that to any of the other churches, just to the Corinthians.
Other churches, and groups of people had other sins that need to be addressed. Did Jesus list the same list of sins when speaking to the Pharisees? Read Matthew chapter 23, and tell me what the list of sins is that Jesus condemns in that chapter. Are they not just as evil. Why should Paul's list be any more important than the very words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 23? The list is arbitrary, that is an example of what would be an exhaustive list. There are many that are not listed. Why didn't he list internet pornography? Isn't that a bad sin? What about pedophilia? Don't you think that would require some consideration? Use your head Bob. It is not an exhaustive list. There are some sins left out of this list that surely even you would consider more heinous than those that are included.
The fact is that all sins are sins against God, and are transgessing God's law. God doesn't differentiate between them for they are breaking his law, one and all. What is different is the consequence. What is the consequence in our society of adultery? of drunkenness? of pedophilia? What do you consider the worst sin? What sin is penalized the most? What sin is omitted from the list?
Every sin will keep you from entering the Kingdom of God.
Only the blood of Jesus Christ can permit you to enter the Kingdom of God. Only his blood will cover all sins.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So why the chastisement and the advocate with God if we sin?
This is a question I asked you in another thread. You danced around it for about five pages and wouldn't answer it. He is our advocate (an advocate for believers only), in order to restore our fellowship, our walk with God, not our salvation. We can never lose our salvation, but we do sin. Every believer sins. So 1John 2:1 tells us that when we do sin we have an advocate, a go-between between the believer and God the Father who restores our fellowship with God. He intercedes on our behalf. It has nothing to do with salvation, but everything to do with our fellowship with God. That is why (in 1John 1:9) we are told to confess our sins and he will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We need a daily cleansing. We sin daily. Every day we need to come to the Lord and confess our sins and have that fellowship with him restored. Sin breaks the fellowship we have with God.

And what covers these sins?

 

[DHK]

And what covers these sins?

The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sins. If it is any other way, then you sink into a religion of works.

 

[Brother Bob]

Not according to scripture.

1 Corth 6:
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Yes, according to Scripture, all sin is of equal value in God's sight. He says plainly that sin is a transgression of the law. Why not just believe that verse. You have taken this verse out of its context many times and have made it say something it was never meant to say. Let's look at the mistakes you make when you keep on quoting the verse.

1. You ignore the historical context. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a very carnal church. He listst some of their sins as examples of how they lived. This may not be true of everyone. He is writing specifically to the problems at the Corinthian Church and addressing them and their problems. He lists these sins and situations, and then says quite clearly But such were some of you. He doesn't say that to any of the other churches, just to the Corinthians.
Other churches, and groups of people had other sins that need to be addressed. Did Jesus list the same list of sins when speaking to the Pharisees? Read Matthew chapter 23, and tell me what the list of sins is that Jesus condemns in that chapter. Are they not just as evil. Why should Paul's list be any more important than the very words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 23? The list is arbitrary, that is an example of what would be an exhaustive list. There are many that are not listed. Why didn't he list internet pornography? Isn't that a bad sin? What about pedophilia? Don't you think that would require some consideration? Use your head Bob. It is not an exhaustive list. There are some sins left out of this list that surely even you would consider more heinous than those that are included.
The fact is that all sins are sins against God, and are transgessing God's law. God doesn't differentiate between them for they are breaking his law, one and all. What is different is the consequence. What is the consequence in our society of adultery? of drunkenness? of pedophilia? What do you consider the worst sin? What sin is penalized the most? What sin is omitted from the list?
Every sin will keep you from entering the Kingdom of God.
Only the blood of Jesus Christ can permit you to enter the Kingdom of God. Only his blood will cover all sins.__________________
DHK

I have never said this is all the list. To say these things are only sins to the Corth. is ridiculous.

 

[DHK]

I have never said this is all the list. To say these things are only sins to the Corth. is ridiculous.

Then why didn't Jesus use the same list in Mat. 23?

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
And what covers these sins?

The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sins. If it is any other way, then you sink into a religion of works.
__________________
DHK

The why are they remembered

Every believer sins

 

[Brother Bob]

Then why didn't Jesus use the same list in Mat. 23?__________________
DHK

He did, but called them Commandments

23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[DHK]

The why are they remembered

They are forgotten in respect to our salvation.
They need to be forgiven (after our salvation) in respect to our fellowship with Him.

 

[DHK]

He did, but called them Commandments

Go back and read Matthew 23. They weren't commandments. They were curses.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
He did, but called them Commandments

Go back and read Matthew 23. They weren't commandments. They were curses.
__________________

Is talking about one subject mostly and that is hypocrits, that does not mean that is all they are subject to. That is a straw man if I ever saw one. You completely left the subject. Is it lawful for anyone to commit adultery is the question, what say you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
The why are they remembered
They are forgotten in respect to our salvation.
They need to be forgiven (after our salvation) in respect to our fellowship with Him.__________________
DHK

They are supposed to white as snow.
So now,you are saying they are remembered against you.

He said they would never be remembered against you any more. If they were covered at the cross, He knew what they were.

Are you saying now that Jesus covered your future sins at the cross, not knowing what they were?

 

[DHK]

Is talking about one subject mostly and that is hypocrits, that does not mean that is all they are subject to.

Read carefully Bob, He calls them hypocrites, and in each verse he tells them why. He lists the sins. If you are unable to read I will give an example for you.

Here is an example of tithing.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
--First he condemns them as hypocrites, as you noticed. But you must read further.
--He commends them for doing the right thing, that is tithing. They tithed everything they had--even down to very last spice.
--Then he condemns them for not doing the most important things of the law: not having justice, mercy, and faith. These were far more important than their meticulous tithing. This was the condemnation that Christ gave. He wasn't condemning any of the things that Paul listed.

The omission of justice, mercy, and faith in a believers life is just as bad as those sins listed 1Cor. 6. And yet how many of us are guilty of those sins? Perhaps these are the sins unto death Bob? These are the sins that Jesus entitled: "Woe, Woe!" He was issuing a curse.

 

[DHK]

They are supposed to white as snow.
So now,you are saying they are remembered against you.

He said they would never be remembered against you any more. If they were covered at the cross, He knew what they were.

Are you saying now that Jesus covered your future sins at the cross, not knowing what they were?

If you don't agree with my explanation Bob, say so. If you haven't read it, go back and read it.

 

[charles_creech78]

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[npetreley]

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Good catch, Charles. Interesting. Notice how it does NOT say, Whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the lake of fire or outer darkness.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
They are supposed to white as snow.
So now,you are saying they are remembered against you.

He said they would never be remembered against you any more. If they were covered at the cross, He knew what they were.

Are you saying now that Jesus covered your future sins at the cross, not knowing what they were?

If you don't agree with my explanation Bob, say so. If you haven't read it, go back and read it.
__________________
DHK

You have not explained it.
1. You said all your sins past, present and future were covered at the cross.

2. Jesus said He would cast those sin and never remember them against you ever.

3. Now you say, after you are saved, and then sin that they were coverd at the cross. I am asking did Jesus know what that sin was and did he cast it never to be remembered against you. Or did he just give you some extra blood in case you did sin after salvation?

4. He chastises you. So if your sin was covered at the cross, why is it being remembered against you again?

 

[Brother Bob]

Good catch, Charles. Interesting. Notice how it does NOT say, Whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the lake of fire or outer darkness.

You got ME on the brain, give it a rest.

 

[James_Newman]

1. Where does the Bible say that? What will happen to those believers who miss the reign?

I believe they will be cast into outerdarkness.

2. BTW, does your concept of faithful believers mean that they will be sin free and therefore earn a right to reign with Christ? That must be, since missing the reign is a consequence of sin.

I think that would be oversimplifying what we teach. We don't teach 'sinless perfection', but we do believe it is possible for believers to reach a relatively high degree of righteousness.

3. You are espousing a doctrine that you don't even believe, except theoritically.



4. Isn't the Scripture plain enough for you? Why the gymnastics?

Scripture says a man will reap what he sows. If enduring chastening produces the peacable fruit of righteousness, what fruit is produced if a man despises chastening?

5. What do you want me to say?

I want you to say 'yes, even though all our sins are forgiven at the cross, there is still a sense in which our sins are not forgiven until we confess them, and even then if we don't forgive others, God says He will not forgive us.'

6. I believe you may have misunderstood me. Where did you get that from my comments?

You said you had a bunch of sins piling up and that would be a problem at the judgment seat of Christ if my doctrine was true. Why aren't sins a problem for your doctrine of the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[James_Newman]

Exactly, and the loss suffered is the fact we will not REIGN with Christ...but we will still be in the MK regardless. If you have the opportunity to rule, but blow that opportunity, that is suffering great loss!

I don't see crownless saints in the kingdom in scripture, but I can appreciate your view much more than the view that says there is nothing to worry about at the judgment seat of Christ. The question is, do the ideas of losing crowns or position in the kingdom motivate Christians to service? Some perhaps, but the majority of Christianity has gotten the idea that it is somehow ungodly to seek the rewards that God has commanded us to seek, and that we are supposed to have a false humility that says 'I don't want anything Lord, but the joy of serving you because I love you so much'. Thats not the only motivation we are given in scripture for serving, and taking away the biblical truth of reward according to works is damning a whole lot of Christians to a lazy indifference toward Christian service.

 

[DHK]

You have not explained it.
1. You said all your sins past, present and future were covered at the cross.

2. Jesus said He would cast those sin and never remember them against you ever.

3. Now you say, after you are saved, and then sin that they were coverd at the cross. I am asking did Jesus know what that sin was and did he cast it never to be remembered against you. Or did he just give you some extra blood in case you did sin after salvation?

4. He chastises you. So if your sin was covered at the cross, why is it being remembered against you again?

It is very simple Bob. I will tell you again.
The blood of Christ at the cross covers all my sin: past present and future. That is why I can never lose my salvation, even (God forbid) if I should be caught in the act of adultery while dying.
To say that God does not know what sins I commit after I am saved is to take away from God's omniscience. Are we going to be so literal in the phrase "he remembers no more" as to mean that God suddenly gets Alzheimers!! Use some common sense here Bob. It is a figure of speech, just like we use "forgive and forget," "bury the hatchet," "its water under the bridge," etc. They all mean approximately the same thing. Don't take away from God's omniscience. He knows all things. He remembers them no more in respect to our salvation. He will never put them against our salvation. They are nailed to the cross (another figurative expression). As far as our salvation is concerned God will never, never bring the matter of our sins, (past, present, and future) up again. There is therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.

But after we are saved we still have the old nature and we still sin. That sin must be confessed to the Lord (not in the matter of salvation), but in respect to our fellowship with God. If we want to have that sweet unbroken fellowship with God, then we must bring up that sin matter on a daily basis and confess it to God. It is not a matter of salvation. It is a matter of fellowship with God.