By faith or by choice

[jbh28]

They are "alive" at this time, yet still dead in their sins, until they place/put their faith in Christ, and then placed in Christ and saved. ...

One of the reasons why I teach that regeneration and faith both happen at the exact same moment. God doesn't half save.

 

[convicted1]

One of the reasons why I teach that regeneration and faith both happen at the exact same moment. God doesn't half save.

:thumbs::thumbs::godisgood::jesus:

 

[kyredneck]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say faith is a work or not, Brother Larry.

So what do you with the statement?:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

The works we do are evidence if we have faith or not.

Both are manifestations of the God given nature within.

That which is not of faith is sin.

"if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself."

So the works we do for God, and furthering His Kingdom, is the evidence that we are saved. Or this is how I see it.

I would rephrase it to say:

So the works we do for God, and furthering His Kingdom, is the evidence that we are born of God.

 

[Skandelon]

So what do you with the statement?:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

This is referring to God's work of reconciliation by which he appeals through his church (us) to all mankind, "Be reconciled to God," "Repent and believe and you will be saved." Etc. He is calling all who are weak and heaven laden to come to him...and he desires for all to come and be saved.

Now, you need to be careful because by insisting that faith is a work you have just admitted that you believe we are really saved "by grace through works." Is that what you are saying?

 

[kyredneck]

This is referring to God's work of reconciliation by which he appeals through his church (us) to all mankind, "Be reconciled to God," "Repent and believe and you will be saved." Etc. He is calling all who are weak and heaven laden to come to him...and he desires for all to come and be saved.

OK, I fail to see how this shows that our faith in Christ is not a work which is well pleasing to God. What you posted above is synonymous with believing on Christ.

Christ was asked:

“What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Christ replied:

“This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Our belief/faith is a work which is well pleasing to God.

Gill:

Ver. 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God,.... The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:

that ye believe on him whom he hath sent; there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ. This, as a principle, is purely God's work; as it is an act, or as it is exercised under the influence of divine grace, it is man's act: "that ye believe"; the object of it is Christ, as sent by the Father, as the Mediator between God and men, as appointed by him to be the Saviour and Redeemer; and believing in Christ, is believing in God that sent him. The Jews reduce all the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the law, for so many they say there are, to this one, "the just shall live by his faith", Hab 2:4. {e}

JFB:

29 This is the work of God--That lies at the threshold of all acceptable obedience, being not only the prerequisite to it, but the proper spring of it--in that sense, the work of works, emphatically "the work of God."


Your man Clarke:

Verse 28. "That we might work the works of God?" - That is, Divine works, or such as God can approve.

Verse 29. "This is the work of God, that ye believe" - There is nothing you can be employed in more acceptable to God than in yielding to the evidence set before you, and acknowledging me as your Messiah and the saviour of a lost world.

Now, you need to be careful because by insisting that faith is a work

It is a work. It is the supreme work. The work of all works.

... you have just admitted that you believe we are really saved "by grace through works." Is that what you are saying?

No.

 

[Skandelon]

It is a work. It is the supreme work. The work of all works.

No.

But, I'm trying to see if you distinguish this 'work' from what Paul refers to as 'works.' Because if you believe faith is a work then by necessity you must believe we are saved 'by grace through work." How can you avoid that?

 

[DHK]

My point exactly.

He did not CHOOSE- he was persuaded.

I am persuaded that gravity will hold me to this earth and that the centripical force of the earth spinning on it's axis will not throw me into outer space this evening.

I did not CHOOSE to believe that.

I was persuaded that it was so. In fact my will is bound to it. I cannot BUT believe it. I have no choice. I HAVE BEEN persuaded. I cannot choose to believe otherwise. I did not choose to believe it to start with. I came to believe it completely apart from any act of volition on my part. My faith in gravity happened to me. I did not choose it.

The same is true with you and every other human being on earth.

And you chose correct because you have evidence in hand. But it is still "The Law of Gravity" based soley on experience (I think).
There are others who have chosen wrongly, as in the "Flat Earth Society."
In so doing they choose, but their choice is by faith. The Hindus likewise choose to baptize themselves in the Ganges River thinking it will wash away their sins. It won't. By faith they have chosen. It is blind faith, faith without any basis. Why are they persuaded to do so? Only because of their ancestral religion tells them to do so.

Our faith is based on intellectual facts--particular the resurrection.
Others, to a great extent base their faith on blind faith--no basis in facts.
--We still choose by faith.
We must choose the first four words of Genesis 1:1 by faith.

 

[kyredneck]

But, I'm trying to see if you distinguish this 'work' from what Paul refers to as 'works.' Because if you believe faith is a work then by necessity you must believe we are saved 'by grace through work." How can you avoid that?

Paul's contrast of faith vs works is in view of the intent to be justified by the works of the law. It's not gonna happen, it never did work that way.

James"s connection of faith to works is in view of the law written on the heart from which both should come naturally.

17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Jas 2

 

[OldRegular]

Sincere question for you Brother OR. What makes your faith any different than those who hold to WoF? For that matter, what makes my faith different than theirs? Faith is faith. The only thing different is what the object of our faith is.

Saving Faith is Saving Faith and it is the Gift of God. Saving Faith is given at regeneration as taught in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Regeneration or "the New Birth" is the work of the Holy Spirit in which those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sins are made spiritually alive. That is precisely what Jesus Christ teaches us in John 3:3ff.

Perhaps some should consider the following Scripture:

Matthew 16:16,17, KJV
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We see that Peters declaration of Faith was the Gift of God!


As for the WOF people I don't doubt that there are many true believers among these people [Though I have doubts about some of the initiators of this heresy.] but they are completely confused about faith as are some on this Forum. They actually believe that faith is a "substance" apparently based on Hebrews 11:1. They actually believe that God exercised "faith" in creation! Weird!

 

[kyredneck]

..... WOF people.....

Show my ignorance, what is WOF?

 

[agedman]

I just wanted to state this is a great thread.

I really like the way the posts are both insightful and educational.

 

[MB]

Because salvation is the unmerited favor (grace) of God through faith, and that grace is a gift of God, would I be correct in assuming that you consider the faith as also a part of that gift of salvation?

The whole process of Salvation is a gift Grace is a gift that comes through faith and faith is a gift that comes through hearing the gospel. Rom. 10:17

Having to over come the inexpressible fear of heights, and, knowing that the ladder performed sufficiently in the past, I express belief. That expressing and acting upon belief is based upon knowledge and history.

Would this be an acceptable illustration of your statement?

Faith in God is hard to express any other way. Being convinced of Christ by the hearing of the gospel is not by experience but, rather experience serves to make our faith stronger. We can test a ladder for strength and stability when we lean it up against a house. The first time we go up a ladder can be scary for some people. However accepting Christ because of what we have heard is another matter. We have to place our trust in what has not been tried by us. Some call it a leap of faith. After all if we could see God like we can see a ladder, faith would not be the issue. Hope is always for the unseen. We can’t test God before we accept His Son like we can a ladder. All we can do is hope what we’ve heard is true. That hope is real faith.

Hearing brings the knowledge, but what (if you are agreeable with the illustration that I submitted) provides the historical context that causes action oriented belief?

Or is active belief departing the subject?

Hearing brings knowledge yet knowledge is not faith unless we begin to hope for what this knowledge contains. Many have the knowledge of the gospel and are lost. Knowing something is true and placing trust in it I believe are two different things. I have surrendered to Christ unconditionally. I have place all my trust in Him.

Would you then agree that these all are gifts of God: faith, grace, salvation, justification, and righteousness?

There is yet another part in the gift of Salvation. It’s called conviction Man first learns of Christ and this convicts them of their own sin. Knowing an innocent person has taken our place gives a real good look at our undeserving selves. The more we look at our selves in our sin the more we are convicted. Conviction is a terrible thing when you have no escape. Yet some men still reject Christ and hate Him all the more for their own convictions. This is why people hate the name of Christ, because it convicts them. Conviction drove me to my knees, Because there was no escape from the truth of my sins.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith that is saving faith is not merely hope. Faith has substance and evidence. Would you not consider this is like James states, "showing faith by my works works?"

I think you are correct in stating that faith is created by God.

Works are important yet they are not part of faith nor do they bring faith to the worker. We can show our faith by our works but they are still just the results of our faith and not faith it self.

See, this is where I personally have a disagreement and probably with most of the BB.

I do not consider that any part of work of salvation can begin without first the person becoming aware of the need of salvation through conviction. That conviction cannot occur without God first making the person alive to even sense the conviction.

Yes we do disagree here. All lost men have a conscience unless they are mentally disturbed.
Even new born's have a conscience. I admit that it can be dulled over time and less effective but men have been living by there conscince ever since creation. Being made alive in order to see your own sin just isn't in the Bible. Most Calvinist would claim man can't understand the gospel but men certainly know when they sin.

That this process of awareness and conviction are the birthing process of the new believer. As such the conception then is start of "regeneration" and regeneration not a one time act of God (except at the point - or appointment - of conception), but a continual flowing process in which a person from time to time becomes "renewed in the Spirit," until we are complete and clothed in His presence.

Salvation is a once in a life time happening it is not a continuing thing that happens over time. We grow from infancy in Christ by Salvation is completely in place and our eternal life with Christ is sealed with in us

Illustration: A greater number of criminals are most angry they were caught, and the greatest number have no remorse for their crime nor the conviction that judgment placed upon them. However, there are a very few, who knowing they are guilty, are truly remorseful, and admit to the crime and the just penalty. Rather they look for a way to escape, and reason to vent their anger.

A person's conscience is dependant on how often he acknowledges it or disregards it. It isn't a matter of inability. Harden criminals are like they are because of there ignoring there conscience.

What was the difference in the two thieves? One had "Godly sorrow" the other did not. Godly sorrow can only be brought to a person in whom God has quickened. That is why the thief could both rebuke the other and express longing toward Christ.

The theif who acknowledge Christ could just as easily heard Christ preach before he was arrested. This being, he rebuked the other theif. The lost one may not have known who Christ was. Neither of us know anything much about them.

What is it about this view in which you disagree, and why?

I disagree with pre faith regeneration because Post faith regeneration is what the Bible teaches. You have said it is needed for conviction to take place that also is not in scripture. I my self was convicted of my sin and believe me I had not been regenerated. You have redefined what regeneration actually is. Look it up. It means to be saved or born again. We simply cannot be born again with out faith and repentance. To assume that man must have this regeneration to understand he is sinfull and needs Christ. To me is Saying God cannot convict or convince a man with out this tool called regeneration. Which make's your spiritual death more powerful than God. All things are possible with God. He would not be God other wise.
We must believe and repent of our sins before we can be made new.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

Show my ignorance, what is WOF?

WoF or "Word Faith" is a heresy that sprang out of "the name it and claim it Pentecostal Movement". The following is only one of the more egregious things they believe [extracted from Walter Martin's Kingdom of Cults revised by Hanecraft].

"All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ because it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe. There are laws of the world of the spirit.... The spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world .... The world and the physical forces governing it were created by the power of faith--a spiritual force. ..... It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation."

Word of Faith leaders: E. W. Kenyon; Kenneth Hagin; The Kenneth and Gloria Copeland people; the Trinity Broadcasting Network people; the Osteen guy that, inherited his father's [John Osteen] congregation, smirks all the time, whose congregation fills a basketball arena in Texas; to name a few.

 

[agedman]

I disagree with pre faith regeneration because Post faith regeneration is what the Bible teaches. You have said it is needed for conviction to take place that also is not in scripture. I my self was convicted of my sin and believe me I had not been regenerated. You have redefined what regeneration actually is. Look it up. It means to be saved or born again. We simply cannot be born again with out faith and repentance. To assume that man must have this regeneration to understand he is sinfull and needs Christ. To me is Saying God cannot convict or convince a man with out this tool called regeneration. Which make's your spiritual death more powerful than God. All things are possible with God. He would not be God other wise.
We must believe and repent of our sins before we can be made new.
MB

Perhaps I am not defining regeneration properly.

Because in the Scriptures there are some who turn immediately away from the truth, and others turn away after following for a period of time, and a third group who never turn away, I have considered that regeneration and actual salvation in two separate application states. That regeneration was the conception of the person becoming aware of the need, and salvation as the culmination of the new born. That is, as conviction works upon the yet unborn, there are abortive situations. That hearing the word of God is the start, hearing the Gospel is paramount.


The Macedonian most likely heard and perhaps even read the Law. He may have heard rumors of a savior. But, God implanted an even greater emphasis into this person, and then sent Peter that the person be born. Similar is the condition of the eunuch when Phillip was sent to him. Obviously God had already begun a work for sometime (he came from a foreign land, learned to read Hebrew, and bought the law - not inexpensive) before meeting Phillip and was born again.

Therefore, it could be considered that the thief most certainly heard Christ for in his rebuke of the other proclaimed Christ as innocent. Had he no prior knowledge, he could not have made the claim. Having listened to the savior (the gospel) he was under great conviction that culminated to actual new birth and the oral cry of acknowledgement. Where the other under the influence of only the conviction in which the law can bring, attained only abortive judgment.

Perhaps I am wrong in assigning the awareness of conviction that leads to "Godly sorrow" and to repentance unto salvation, as part of the, regeneration process. But I am not certain that there is not a general "feel bad" conviction that is common among all living, and a Holy Spirit conviction that drives a person to really understand their hell bound state and need of a savior.

I base the understanding (the two types of conviction) primarily upon 2 Corinthians 7:5-11.



I am not so puffed up that I would not change should I find myself in Scriptural error.

 

[DaChaser1]

Sure. It's all about doing and deeds and works:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother. Lu 18

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Lu 10

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets;
15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24

for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek Ro 2

for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 2 Cor 5:10

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. Mt 25

we are justified before God SOLELY by His Grace extended towards us from the Cross!

ALl that we are required to do to be in that state is to place faith in Christ period!

saved by His grace alone, by faith alone, and even THAT is the gift of God towards us!

Good works are judged to determine if they were really good or not , in order to reward us for real good deeds done while in the flesh..

NOTHING to do with being saved or not!

 

[Winman]

If belief is not a choice, then how do you explain how some Christians on this forum believe the world was created in six literal 24 hour days, while others believe the universe was created over a much longer period of time, perhaps billions of years?

Did God cause some Christians to believe creation took six 24 hour days, and cause others to believe creatiion took billions of years? Would God cause Christians to believe two contradictory stories?

Only one story can be the truth, the contradictory story must be false. So why do Christians believe two contradictory theories?

 

[DaChaser1]

If belief is not a choice, then how do you explain how some Christians on this forum believe the world was created in six literal 24 hour days, while others believe the universe was created over a much longer period of time, perhaps billions of years?

Did God cause some Christians to believe creation took six 24 hour days, and cause others to believe creatiion took billions of years? Would God cause Christians to believe two contradictory stories?

Only one story can be the truth, the contradictory story must be false. So why do Christians believe two contradictory theories?

Wether one believes in Young/New earth has NOTHING to do with IF we are able to believe in jesus, as one is based upon scientific principles and truths, while faith in Christ impossible until/unless God enables us to, as that is a spiritual matter, debating scientific facts is not!

 

[Don]

16 pages in just a couple of days.

Haven't been able to read through all of this; but looking at the OP and a few pages of responses, the crux seems to be around persuasion leads to faith; thus faith is something that is operated upon us, rather than being something we exercise.

One could argue that this is absolutely correct, since we see that "faith comes by hearing"; and that Agrippa said, "almost thou persuadest me." However, re-looking at both of those as examples seems to indicate that Agrippa resisted the persuasion, and thus made a choice not to believe; and in the other, we all know that there are many who hear, but refuse.

So in the end run, is faith something that is exercised by the individual upon being persuaded? Or is it something that is exercised upon us?

In one post, a poster made reference to not being able to "unbelieve" something, and used a round earth as the example; however, even in this day and age, the Flat Earth Society is alive and well....

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbs: Right. And if you continually refused to act upon what you KNOW to be true then you have chosen to 'trade the truth in for a lie" and you stand "without excuse." This is what I was attempting to explain before...

Then according to this, salvation comes by acting upon something- not by faith.

The Bible says, BELIEVE and be saved.

The Arminian says BELIEVE and ACT and be saved.

 

[Luke2427]

The point I am trying to get across(and apparently failing miserably), is that people can put faith in the wrong thing.

It's like a jury. These twelve look at all the evidence put before them, from the prosecutor and defending attorney, and they choose which evidence is the most applicable/believeable. Sometimes, they choose the wrong verdict. Just because someone is shown something that appears true, does not make it true. Look at the Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, JW's, etc. They believe these are true, and place their faith in them. It does not make them right. One can accept it as fact, put their faith in that, and be wrong all along.

But that's besides the point of this thread.

This thread is about the nature of faith.

Good faith or bad faith is not the point of this thread.

Faith period.

Faith, whether accurate or inaccurate is not a choice.

It is something that happens to you.

You do not believe the earth is round by choice.

You were MADE TO BELIEVE it by facts presented to you that persuaded you.

You didn't choose to believe it once the facts were presented.

The facts either persuaded you or they did not.

Choice had nothing to do with it.