By faith or by choice

[Luke2427]

Luke, I have some questions:

Can an unregenerate man be convinced or persuaded that God's revelations are true without acting in obedience to, or in accordance with, those revelations? OR can only the elect who have been regenerated be convinced or persuaded of God's revealed truth?

You have to give to get, Skandelon.

I'll be glad to answer these questions when you address the argument put forth in this thread.

You can do that any number of ways.

You can prove that faith is a choice anecdotally.

You can prove it exegetically.

But that is your part.

Do that THEN ask questions.

 

[Luke2427]

This isn't directed to me, but I wanna pway, too.


In the DoG model, they must be quickened to believe, regenerated, if you will. Then they are "alive" to make a choice to believe, which is their only option.

I don't think this is necessarily accurate.

The whole point of this thread is that NNE EVER CHOOSES to believe.

You do not choose to believe in Christ for salvation any more than you choose to believe in gravity for security.

No one in his right mind nails his bed to the floor at night and straps himself to it because that night he CHOSE to believe that gravity would fail.

He believes gravity will save him from the centripetal force of the earth spinning on its axis every day. He never made a CHOICE to trust in the power of gravity to save.

He was MADE to believe it by facts that came into his observation and persuaded him.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,

What you seem to be missing in your analysis is that men can and do trade what they know to be true in for lies. People do this ALL THE TIME.

I don't think they do- not literally.

They can become deceived which is to be persuaded that something false is true.

Their faith is misplaced but it is because something happened TO THEM. They WERE persuaded.

As illustrated before, if someone accused your son of stealing but you just didn't believe them and so they showed you a surveillance video proving it, you still might suppress that truth, lie about it and hide it.

This has nothing to do with this argument.

People can DO all KINDS of things. What they cannot do is CHOOSE to believe something.

They are either persuaded or not.

They do not choose to believe it.

Eventually you might even come to believe your lies as your heart grown calloused on the matter.

Right. Notice the PASSIVE nature of your language. You might "come to believe".

That is not you choosing to believe but you being persuaded.

That is what Paul illustrates happens to unbeliever. He says they KNOW GOD and that they clearly see and understand his attributes and nature, but that they CHOOSE to trade what they KNOW to be true in for lies. This is why they stand without excuse.

The word choose is not there Skandelon. It is the Arminian assumption that it is implied.

The whole system of Arminianism is based on the faulty assumption that the Bible IMPLIES things that it does not say- namely that salvation comes by choice and that faith is just the product of choice.

But the Bible ACTUALLY says the opposite. Choice is the product of faith. Not vica versa.

Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe. That is why James says that faith without works is dead.

This is a whole other subject.

BEING PERSUADED will most certainly mold your works.

True faith is faith that affects the way you live.

That is a whole other subject.

The point of this thread is not what faith does- but how faith comes to be. More specifically it is that faith does NOT come to be by choice.

You are MADE to believe everything that you believe.

 

[Winman]

Wether one believes in Young/New earth has NOTHING to do with IF we are able to believe in jesus, as one is based upon scientific principles and truths, while faith in Christ impossible until/unless God enables us to, as that is a spiritual matter, debating scientific facts is not!

You did not answer the question. If a person can only become a Christian because God causes them to believe in Jesus, why does God cause some Christians to believe the creation account to mean six 24 hour days, while other Christians believe the creation took billions of years? Isn't it the Holy Spirit that reveals the true understanding of scripture?

So why do Christians with the Holy Spirit that gives true understanding of scripture believe two contradictory theories?

 

[Luke2427]

One of the reasons why I teach that regeneration and faith both happen at the exact same moment. God doesn't half save.

But the Bible doesn't teach it.

Regeneration precedes faith.

You can't believe until you have ears to hear.

The unregenerate does not have ears to hear.

He must first have ears to hear, then he is persuaded (believes) and is saved.

 

[DaChaser1]

You did not answer the question. If a person can only become a Christian because God causes them to believe in Jesus, why does God cause some Christians to believe the creation account to mean six 24 hour days, while other Christians believe the creation took billions of years? Isn't it the Holy Spirit that reveals the true understanding of scripture?

So why do Christians with the Holy Spirit that gives true understanding of scripture believe two contradictory theories?

jesus said that the HS will come to give us understanding "illumination" of the biblcal truths of the texts as regarding what I would call "essential" doctrines...

dating ofthe universe and earth, while important, NOT a under heading 'core doctrine!"

 

[jbh28]

But the Bible doesn't teach it.

Regeneration precedes faith.

Doesn't teach that.(keep reading)

You can't believe until you have ears to hear.

correct

The unregenerate does not have ears to hear.

correct

He must first have ears to hear, then he is persuaded (believes) and is saved.

The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes. Neither does the Bible one time teach that one can believe before he is regenerate. There are no unbelieving born again people. What's being done here is a process that isn't in Scripture. I believe salvation, all parts, is a work of God alone. That includes regeneration, faith, justification, adoption..... When God regenerates a person, he doesn't wait till later to enable that person to believe. It happens at the exact same moment. You are putting a "first" that isn't in Scripture. It's not regenerate and then believes as in he believes at a later time. It's not believing and then is regenerate either as some teach. When God regenerates, you believe. Otherwise, you have a person that is born again with the Spirit abiding in him and is an unbelievers, which is not taught in Scripture.

What we have to be careful of is to not add something that isn't there because of what someone else believes. We believe Salvation is 100% of God. We want to emphasize that. Let's be careful not to over emphasize it. Just because some believe that belief is before regeneration(a spiritually dead person believing...) doesn't meant that the opposite is necessarily true.

 

[agedman]

The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes. Neither does the Bible one time teach that one can believe before he is regenerate.

I am not certain I agree with the first sentence, but do agree with the second.

What can you show that would prove the first sentence is accurate.

There are no unbelieving born again people.

I agree. This is according to Scripture.

What's being done here is a process that isn't in Scripture.

I am not certain I agree with that sentence. Any discussion involving the Scriptures are good especially if it brings understanding in agreement with the Holy Spirit.

I believe salvation, all parts, is a work of God alone. That includes regeneration, faith, justification, adoption..... When God regenerates a person, he doesn't wait till later to enable that person to believe. It happens at the exact same moment.

You state this as "I believe...," so it caries only the weight of your view, just as much one can make an opposing view of belief.

You are putting a "first" that isn't in Scripture.

Can you demonstrate this by using Scripture?

It's not regenerate and then believes as in he believes at a later time. It's not believing and then is regenerate either as some teach.

Can you demonstrate this by Scriptures?

When God regenerates, you believe. Otherwise, you have a person that is born again with the Spirit abiding in him and is an unbelievers, which is not taught in Scripture.

Only if one aligns regeneration and salvation as the same act of God. However, if it is not, then your argument would be frail at best.

What we have to be careful of is to not add something that isn't there because of what someone else believes. We believe Salvation is 100% of God. We want to emphasize that. Let's be careful not to over emphasize it. Just because some believe that belief is before regeneration(a spiritually dead person believing...) doesn't meant that the opposite is necessarily true.

I personally don't have a problem with this part except the last sentence. Ones who teach that salvation and regeneration are simultaneous and inseparable might need to support their view a bit more thoroughly.

 

[DaChaser1]

I am not certain I agree with the first sentence, but do agree with the second.

What can you show that would prove the first sentence is accurate.



I agree. This is according to Scripture.



I am not certain I agree with that sentence. Any discussion involving the Scriptures are good especially if it brings understanding in agreement with the Holy Spirit.




You state this as "I believe...," so it caries only the weight of your view, just as much one can make an opposing view of belief.




Can you demonstrate this by using Scripture?



Can you demonstrate this by Scriptures?



Only if one aligns regeneration and salvation as the same act of God. However, if it is not, then your argument would be frail at best.



I personally don't have a problem with this part except the last sentence. Ones who teach that salvation and regeneration are simultaneous and inseparable might need to support their view a bit more thoroughly.

Think our brother is stating that while we tend to break up salvation process into individual aspects, such as elected, than faith, than saved, than sauntified, than glorified as being part of a linear time line...

Gpd views it as being part of the entire salvation process, to Him all happening as part of same salvation event!

he sees and knows us from His point of view as being elected, justified, saunctified, glorified, while we see it based upon time sequencing!

 

[agedman]

Think our brother is stating that while we tend to break up salvation process into individual aspects, such as elected, than faith, than saved, than sauntified, than glorified as being part of a linear time line...

Gpd views it as being part of the entire salvation process, to Him all happening as part of same salvation event!

he sees and knows us from His point of view as being elected, justified, saunctified, glorified, while we see it based upon time sequencing!

I kind of figured that out by the statements.

But, what I am attempting to discern is the point of regeneration.

 

[Cypress]

But that's besides the point of this thread.

This thread is about the nature of faith.

Good faith or bad faith is not the point of this thread.

Faith period.

Faith, whether accurate or inaccurate is not a choice.

It is something that happens to you.

You do not believe the earth is round by choice.

You were MADE TO BELIEVE it by facts presented to you that persuaded you.

You didn't choose to believe it once the facts were presented.

The facts either persuaded you or they did not.

Choice had nothing to do with it.

Faith is a noun, it can't happen to you.

 

[agedman]

Faith is a noun, it can't happen to you.

Faith is also a verb.

 

[DaChaser1]

Faith is also a verb.

natural man, unsaved sinners, as once we ALL were...

can produce ONLY natural faith

It takes "supernatural faith" to chose Christ to get saved, and thats part of the salvation gift God grants unto His own found in Christ!

 

[jbh28]

I am not certain I agree with the first sentence, but do agree with the second.

What can you show that would prove the first sentence is accurate.

Show me it isn't.

I said, "The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes." You are asking me to prove something doesn't exist. Just show me one place where a person is said to have been born again and yet not believe.

I agree. This is according to Scripture.

Good

I am not certain I agree with that sentence. Any discussion involving the Scriptures are good especially if it brings understanding in agreement with the Holy Spirit.

What are you disagreeing with. I was referring to what Luke said as a process. Are you saying it is or isn't a process?

Can you demonstrate this by using Scripture?

demonstrate what, that Luke said that? otherwise, you are asking me to prove a negative again. I said something "isn't in Scripture." You need to provide Scripture that has it.

Can you demonstrate this by Scriptures?

ditto from above

Only if one aligns regeneration and salvation as the same act of God. However, if it is not, then your argument would be frail at best.

No, you even agreed with me above when I said, "There are no unbelieving born again people." If a person is regenerate and doesn't believe, then he is an "unbelieving born again" person which you agreed with me that no such person exists.

I personally don't have a problem with this part except the last sentence. Ones who teach that salvation and regeneration are simultaneous and inseparable might need to support their view a bit more thoroughly.

Show they are not. I've never seen one instance where salvation is a long process where one gets regenerate and then later believes. You even agreed with me that there are no unbelieving born again people. If that's the case, then regeneration, faith, repentance, justification all happen at the same time. The only reason that anyone says that regeneration precedes faith is that they want to counter the argument that believe precedes regeneration. As I stated, no where in Scripture does it say that "one is regenerate before he believes. If there is, please share it with me.

 

[DaChaser1]

Show me it isn't.

I said, "The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes." You are asking me to prove something doesn't exist. Just show me one place where a person is said to have been born again and yet not believe.


Good


What are you disagreeing with. I was referring to what Luke said as a process. Are you saying it is or isn't a process?

demonstrate what, that Luke said that? otherwise, you are asking me to prove a negative again. I said something "isn't in Scripture." You need to provide Scripture that has it.


ditto from above


No, you even agreed with me above when I said, "There are no unbelieving born again people." If a person is regenerate and doesn't believe, then he is an "unbelieving born again" person which you agreed with me that no such person exists.


Show they are not. I've never seen one instance where salvation is a long process where one gets regenerate and then later believes. You even agreed with me that there are no unbelieving born again people. If that's the case, then regeneration, faith, repentance, justification all happen at the same time. The only reason that anyone says that regeneration precedes faith is that they want to counter the argument that believe precedes regeneration. As I stated, no where in Scripture does it say that "one is regenerate before he believes. If there is, please share it with me.

Would say from the scriptures that regeneration/faith in Christ could been same way as say repentance/faith...

Both sides same coin, happens intertwined/together neither exist without other, all part of God working out salvation in our lives!

 

[kyredneck]

WoF or "Word Faith" is a heresy that sprang out of "the name it and claim it Pentecostal Movement". The following is only one of the more egregious things they believe [extracted from Walter Martin's Kingdom of Cults revised by Hanecraft].

"All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ because it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe. There are laws of the world of the spirit.... The spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world .... The world and the physical forces governing it were created by the power of faith--a spiritual force. ..... It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation."

Word of Faith leaders: E. W. Kenyon; Kenneth Hagin; The Kenneth and Gloria Copeland people; the Trinity Broadcasting Network people; the Osteen guy that, inherited his father's [John Osteen] congregation, smirks all the time, whose congregation fills a basketball arena in Texas; to name a few.

Yuck.

Thanks for the education OR, as usual you were brief but thorough.

 

[DaChaser1]

Yuck.

Thanks for the education OR, as usual you were brief but thorough.

what makes all of them really bad is that each claims direct revelation from God, either jesus or the HS talked to them, showing them these "truths' to bring to the Church!

ALL of them pretty much teach/believe that jesus NOT God in flesh, but was in plan/mind of God and came to earth to show us how to live by 'faith", using spritual laws as he did...

Some say that he died as a sinner on the Cross, and had to go to hell and get born again!

And we are JUST
the same incarnation of God as jesus was, as he had to get born again, difference is that he was first man to be such, shown the way fro us, and just acted out faith way more!

 

[Skandelon]

Then according to this, salvation comes by acting upon something- not by faith.

The Bible says, BELIEVE and be saved.

The Arminian says BELIEVE and ACT and be saved.

:laugh: Still rather debate a straw-man than me, I see?

Even the demons believe, so by this standard I guess you think they too will be saved.

We are talking about the CHOICE to trade what you KNOW to be true in for a lie. I agree with your assessment that we don't have to CHOOSE to believe. We Know the truth because God clearly reveals it. The choice is whether or not we act on that truth or trade it in for lies. You didn't address that point...

Edit: And in regard to the other post, you didn't even seem to catch the fact that I was agreeing with you regarding persuasion. When you trade what you know to be truth in for lies you become convinced (or persuaded) to believe those lies. That is the process called 'hardening." Its not a condition from birth, but a result of one who knows the truth but refuses to accept it.

 

[OldRegular]

I disagree with pre faith regeneration because Post faith regeneration is what the Bible teaches.

Just where does Scripture teach that faith must precede regeneration, the new birth?

To me is Saying God cannot convict or convince a man with out this tool called regeneration. Which make's your spiritual death more powerful than God. All things are possible with God. He would not be God other wise.
We must believe and repent of our sins before we can be made new.
MB

I don't believe that anyone has stated that "spiritual death" is more powerful than God. In fact it is only God, not man, who must overcome "spiritual death".

25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

This resurrection from "spiritual death" is also clearly taught in Ephesians 2:1-10. There it is said of the spiritually dead man, even the elect, that they walked according to the course of this world, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, made us spiritually alive, raised us from spiritual death!

Man is simply unable to do so as Scripture teaches:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is "the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion". [Thayers]

 

[Winman]

Doesn't teach that.(keep reading)
correct
correct

The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes. Neither does the Bible one time teach that one can believe before he is regenerate. There are no unbelieving born again people. What's being done here is a process that isn't in Scripture. I believe salvation, all parts, is a work of God alone. That includes regeneration, faith, justification, adoption..... When God regenerates a person, he doesn't wait till later to enable that person to believe. It happens at the exact same moment. You are putting a "first" that isn't in Scripture. It's not regenerate and then believes as in he believes at a later time. It's not believing and then is regenerate either as some teach. When God regenerates, you believe. Otherwise, you have a person that is born again with the Spirit abiding in him and is an unbelievers, which is not taught in Scripture.

What we have to be careful of is to not add something that isn't there because of what someone else believes. We believe Salvation is 100% of God. We want to emphasize that. Let's be careful not to over emphasize it. Just because some believe that belief is before regeneration(a spiritually dead person believing...) doesn't meant that the opposite is necessarily true.

The scriptures repeatedly show faith precedes regeneration or life.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse does not say "and that living ye might believe" no, it says "and that believeing ye might have life". Faith precedes regeneration.

I would agree that faith and regeneration happen at the same moment, but the scriptures ALWAYS show regeneration is the result of believeing. Faith is the cause, regeneration the effect.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice. A person does not have to be regenerated to hear the word of God. Then Jesus said "they" (the dead) that hear "shall" live. Faith precedes life or regeneration.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus didn't say that everyone who believes "has" everlasting life here, he said every one which believes on him "may have" everlasting life. This absolutely shows faith preceding regeneration.

The scriptures ALWAYS show faith preceding regeneration. You can deny it all you want, but the scriptures show it over and over again.